1 00:00:10,140 --> 00:00:12,445 And now I'm really excited to introduce you to our 2 00:00:12,445 --> 00:00:13,740 two speakers this evening. 3 00:00:13,740 --> 00:00:16,375 Barbara Quaid is a professor at the University of Michigan 4 00:00:16,375 --> 00:00:19,146 Law School, where she teaches criminal law, criminal 5 00:00:19,146 --> 00:00:22,140 procedure, national security, and data privacy. 6 00:00:22,140 --> 00:00:25,216 She's also a legal analyst for NBC News and MSNBC, 7 00:00:25,216 --> 00:00:28,370 and she's the co-host of Sisters in Law podcast and 8 00:00:28,370 --> 00:00:31,899 author of the national bestseller, Attack from Within. 9 00:00:31,899 --> 00:00:34,100 From 2010 to 2017, she served as U.S. 10 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:37,033 attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, 11 00:00:37,033 --> 00:00:40,039 and she was the first woman to hold that position. 12 00:00:40,039 --> 00:00:43,500 Deborah Juarez is currently appointed to the Seattle 13 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:46,960 City Council, representing District 5, my district. 14 00:00:48,039 --> 00:00:49,798 Any other D5ers in the room? 15 00:00:49,798 --> 00:00:50,792 North Seattle? 16 00:00:50,792 --> 00:00:51,329 Come on. 17 00:00:51,329 --> 00:00:52,399 Nope. All right. 18 00:00:52,399 --> 00:00:54,158 Well, it's a special place. 19 00:00:55,298 --> 00:00:59,048 She previously served as Seattle City Council President, and 20 00:00:59,048 --> 00:01:02,042 she was the first Indigenous woman to hold that role. 21 00:01:02,042 --> 00:01:03,871 Her remarkable career has spanned 22 00:01:03,871 --> 00:01:06,864 public defense, tribal affairs, economic development, and 23 00:01:06,864 --> 00:01:09,739 public service, including work with Evergreen Legal Services, 24 00:01:09,739 --> 00:01:11,995 King County Superior Court, the Governor's 25 00:01:11,995 --> 00:01:14,680 Office of Indian Affairs, and Seattle City Council. 26 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,140 Would you please join me in welcoming Deborah 27 00:01:17,140 --> 00:01:18,500 and Barbara to the stage? 28 00:01:32,420 --> 00:01:33,078 All right. 29 00:01:35,578 --> 00:01:36,519 So I'm going to sit here. 30 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:39,500 Thanks so much. 31 00:01:51,239 --> 00:01:52,959 Well, this is very exciting. 32 00:01:52,959 --> 00:01:54,959 The last time I was here, I was in the audience 33 00:01:54,959 --> 00:01:57,519 when Barbara was here promoting her other book, 34 00:01:57,519 --> 00:01:58,959 The Attack from Within. 35 00:01:59,959 --> 00:02:02,459 And so let me just start with, first of all, 36 00:02:02,459 --> 00:02:04,540 welcome Barbara McQuaid back to Seattle. 37 00:02:10,038 --> 00:02:12,544 Welcome to Seattle and FIFA and a special shout 38 00:02:12,544 --> 00:02:14,985 out to our sister, former Mayor Jenny Durkan, 39 00:02:14,985 --> 00:02:16,400 that brought us together. 40 00:02:17,419 --> 00:02:20,258 And so what I want to start with is I know that you want 41 00:02:20,258 --> 00:02:23,098 to share some things with the good folks of Seattle. 42 00:02:23,098 --> 00:02:24,068 Well, thank you. 43 00:02:24,068 --> 00:02:26,217 I just want to say how honored I am to be 44 00:02:26,217 --> 00:02:28,020 back here at Seattle Town Hall. 45 00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:32,360 I was here a couple years ago and absolutely loved coming. 46 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,199 What an incredible community. 47 00:02:34,199 --> 00:02:36,400 What an informed group of people. 48 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,900 Deborah, thank you very much for moderating tonight. 49 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:43,919 And I just wanted to show a little bit of my Seattle pride. 50 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:44,180 A little... 51 00:02:45,377 --> 00:02:45,860 A little... 52 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:49,258 A storm. 53 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,127 I know it's a rough year for the storm, but I also know 54 00:02:55,127 --> 00:02:58,729 that no other Seattle team is a four-time champion, 55 00:02:58,729 --> 00:02:59,580 so go storm. 56 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,336 And I also have to thank Deborah for the gift she gave me just 57 00:03:04,336 --> 00:03:06,572 before we came out on stage, which is this beautiful 58 00:03:06,572 --> 00:03:08,258 necklace, and maybe you can tell us about it. 59 00:03:08,258 --> 00:03:11,639 Well, in our tradition, as you know, never mind the land 60 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,192 acknowledgement, she is wearing Dentalium, which is very 61 00:03:15,192 --> 00:03:18,247 special in the Pacific Northwest and other tribes. 62 00:03:18,247 --> 00:03:19,526 And she also has the turquoise 63 00:03:19,526 --> 00:03:21,419 beads. This originally came from my other dear 64 00:03:21,419 --> 00:03:24,585 sister Senator Claudia Kauffman, who's Nez Perce. 65 00:03:24,585 --> 00:03:26,620 Claudia gave it to me and as we do, 66 00:03:26,620 --> 00:03:30,145 we gift when we have visitors and I wanted her to have 67 00:03:30,145 --> 00:03:32,506 something. So that is what I brought to her 68 00:03:32,506 --> 00:03:34,800 tonight and I let Senator Kauffman know that I would be 69 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,007 gifting and re-gifting our gift because that's what 70 00:03:37,007 --> 00:03:37,258 we do. 71 00:03:37,258 --> 00:03:39,872 I know white folk call it re-gifting, we 72 00:03:39,872 --> 00:03:41,205 don't call it that. 73 00:03:41,205 --> 00:03:42,786 It's called honoring. 74 00:03:42,786 --> 00:03:45,711 So we want you to have something that was close to 75 00:03:45,711 --> 00:03:47,556 us that we wore that has memories. 76 00:03:47,556 --> 00:03:51,937 And also she's got her Seattle Storm shirt on, so how can 77 00:03:51,937 --> 00:03:53,348 you go wrong? 78 00:03:53,348 --> 00:03:54,500 Thank you. 79 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:57,699 So before we begin, I got to do a 80 00:03:57,699 --> 00:04:01,383 quick little shout out is Thaddeus Gregory is here. 81 00:04:01,383 --> 00:04:05,530 He's a former student of Professor McQuaid. 82 00:04:05,530 --> 00:04:06,960 There he is. 83 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,739 He's a legislative aide and before I left 84 00:04:10,739 --> 00:04:14,122 the office he says let Professor McQuaid know 85 00:04:14,122 --> 00:04:16,959 that she was my teacher and I never missed a class. 86 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:19,209 It's a little late now to be sucking up to the professor. 87 00:04:19,209 --> 00:04:22,334 You already graduated from law school, so, but I want 88 00:04:22,334 --> 00:04:26,459 to say a big shout out to him, and his dad is Judge Gregory, 89 00:04:26,459 --> 00:04:29,682 Willie Gregory, so with that, we are going to dive in a little 90 00:04:29,682 --> 00:04:31,800 bit, but before we dive in, Barbara, I want to, if 91 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,358 there's anything that you want to kind of prep us 92 00:04:33,358 --> 00:04:35,129 with before we go into questions, Barbara had 93 00:04:35,129 --> 00:04:37,430 questions, which is really wonderful that she sent 94 00:04:37,430 --> 00:04:39,387 to me, and then I had some questions, and then I 95 00:04:39,387 --> 00:04:41,312 combined them, so we kind of have a little bit of 96 00:04:41,312 --> 00:04:43,540 a flow here, we may go a little back and forth, 97 00:04:43,540 --> 00:04:46,218 but I'm really following the book, and I don't 98 00:04:46,218 --> 00:04:48,528 know, I'm going to call on some folks. 99 00:04:48,528 --> 00:04:49,939 I read all 327 pages. 100 00:04:49,939 --> 00:04:51,514 Who else read the book? 101 00:04:51,514 --> 00:04:52,427 Anyone else? 102 00:04:52,427 --> 00:04:53,173 Be honest. 103 00:04:53,173 --> 00:04:54,500 Oh, you just got it. 104 00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:56,773 Well, I got it the minute I got the call, so I 105 00:04:56,773 --> 00:04:57,290 was on it. 106 00:04:57,290 --> 00:04:59,500 So with that, Barbara, can you share with 107 00:04:59,500 --> 00:05:02,908 the audience just kind of like, you're here, you got the book, 108 00:05:02,908 --> 00:05:05,968 and then we can just dive right into some of the questions 109 00:05:05,968 --> 00:05:07,040 that we have teed up. 110 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:08,697 Yeah, one thing I'll say is I've been traveling 111 00:05:08,697 --> 00:05:09,420 around the country. 112 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:11,533 The book came out June 2nd, and so I've had a 113 00:05:11,533 --> 00:05:14,120 chance to talk about it with a lot of different groups. 114 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,420 And the thing that I find so heartening 115 00:05:16,420 --> 00:05:19,459 is how many people are really interested in the message 116 00:05:19,459 --> 00:05:21,846 and people who are really interested in 117 00:05:21,846 --> 00:05:23,220 fixing our democracy. 118 00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:25,899 I think sometimes it's easy to assume that nobody cares 119 00:05:25,899 --> 00:05:28,240 and they're all busy watching, I don't know, 120 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,519 Dancing with the Stars, Celebrity Season 47, 121 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:31,420 or whatever it is. 122 00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:34,540 But there are many people, like all of you, 123 00:05:34,540 --> 00:05:36,040 who care deeply about our country. 124 00:05:37,139 --> 00:05:41,759 It took 250 years to build and about four years to destroy, 125 00:05:41,759 --> 00:05:43,459 or less, two years to destroy. 126 00:05:43,459 --> 00:05:47,939 And so many people, I think, want to be part of the fix. 127 00:05:47,939 --> 00:05:51,500 We want to see our country last another 250 years 128 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:52,300 for our children and our grandchildren. 129 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:52,660 Thank you. 130 00:05:57,778 --> 00:05:59,954 so before I start asking a few questions um there 131 00:05:59,954 --> 00:06:02,019 is something that I do want to share is I want to 132 00:06:02,019 --> 00:06:05,182 tell you Barb you're a really good storyteller and I really 133 00:06:05,182 --> 00:06:08,160 like the rhythm of your book and how you set it up and it's 134 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,500 you know I'm a lawyer as well almost 40 years 135 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:13,225 now and I literally went into PTS trigger mode with 136 00:06:13,225 --> 00:06:16,399 highlighter and cabbing and writing stuff in the margins. 137 00:06:16,399 --> 00:06:20,975 But my point is, it's really hard for some of us as lawyers 138 00:06:20,975 --> 00:06:24,757 to translate legal issues into the public to understand 139 00:06:24,757 --> 00:06:27,899 their democracy and the concepts that you bring up in your 140 00:06:27,899 --> 00:06:30,415 book. And you, particularly in your 141 00:06:30,415 --> 00:06:33,639 introduction, as you should, when you talk about and you 142 00:06:33,639 --> 00:06:37,362 give us an overview of the power and corruption and cruelty 143 00:06:37,362 --> 00:06:41,620 and chaos that we're seeing and And what is the way forward? 144 00:06:41,620 --> 00:06:43,959 It doesn't just prepare us for the premise, 145 00:06:43,959 --> 00:06:49,459 but I really think it spoke to me anyway, in real time. 146 00:06:49,459 --> 00:06:52,134 We are talking about people that are doing these 147 00:06:52,134 --> 00:06:53,540 crappy things right now. 148 00:06:53,540 --> 00:06:55,838 And you brought it right home to us. 149 00:06:55,838 --> 00:06:58,223 And so I want to go into the very first question, 150 00:06:58,223 --> 00:06:59,139 if you don't mind. 151 00:06:59,139 --> 00:07:01,526 The first question is, which was one of the ones that 152 00:07:01,526 --> 00:07:03,620 you and I talked about, which I'd like. 153 00:07:03,620 --> 00:07:05,620 Why did you decide to call your 154 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:07,699 book or title your book The Fix? 155 00:07:07,699 --> 00:07:09,651 Yeah, the book is called The Fix, 156 00:07:09,651 --> 00:07:12,430 Saving America from the Corruption of a Mob-Style 157 00:07:12,430 --> 00:07:15,634 Government. Not pulling any punches there, but The Fix 158 00:07:15,634 --> 00:07:19,120 is sort of, has a, you know, sort of a double meaning there. 159 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,920 The first is the problem that I think all of us can see, 160 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,016 which is we have a president who leads our 161 00:07:27,016 --> 00:07:31,512 country like a mob boss, using extortion tactics, 162 00:07:31,512 --> 00:07:33,699 intimidation, fear. 163 00:07:33,699 --> 00:07:39,850 And so the term the fix is in with somebody who is engaging in 164 00:07:39,850 --> 00:07:42,399 an organized crime enterprise. 165 00:07:42,399 --> 00:07:43,759 But it also means something else, 166 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:46,360 and a good part of the book talks about the fix. 167 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,245 Like how do you repair this? 168 00:07:48,245 --> 00:07:51,278 How do we restore our democracy after we have 169 00:07:51,278 --> 00:07:55,223 seen somebody destroy it the way this president has? 170 00:07:55,223 --> 00:07:57,833 And so much of it is proscriptive 171 00:07:57,833 --> 00:07:59,283 in terms of ideas. 172 00:07:59,283 --> 00:08:01,274 Some are institutional ideas that 173 00:08:01,274 --> 00:08:03,783 require legal changes, but others are things that 174 00:08:03,783 --> 00:08:05,745 we can do individually right now. 175 00:08:05,745 --> 00:08:09,052 And so The Fix has sort of that two meanings. 176 00:08:09,052 --> 00:08:11,439 And I hope people will see it as a 177 00:08:11,439 --> 00:08:12,382 hopeful book. 178 00:08:12,382 --> 00:08:14,658 Certainly, I diagnose what I see as 179 00:08:14,658 --> 00:08:15,600 the problems. 180 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,800 But as a prosecutor who saw some of 181 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,987 these kinds of cases in my work, I also saw how we can counter 182 00:08:20,987 --> 00:08:22,353 these kinds of problems. 183 00:08:22,353 --> 00:08:25,471 And so So I am hopeful that by sharing 184 00:08:25,471 --> 00:08:30,720 ideas, it will help inspire other ideas and also inspire 185 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,080 action so that we can fix what's broken about our democracy. 186 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,370 So when we talk about mob-style tactics and what we're seeing 187 00:08:38,370 --> 00:08:41,945 in real time, not just the president though, what 188 00:08:41,945 --> 00:08:43,840 are the other bad actors? 189 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,158 I mean, you talk about this in the book more in depth, and 190 00:08:46,158 --> 00:08:48,004 I know you all are going to to buy the book. 191 00:08:48,004 --> 00:08:50,187 But when we talk about the mob style tactics 192 00:08:50,187 --> 00:08:52,990 of not just the president, his executive orders, and 193 00:08:52,990 --> 00:08:55,466 the vicious and cruel things that he's done, 194 00:08:55,466 --> 00:08:57,869 what about the people that surround him? 195 00:08:57,869 --> 00:09:00,734 What about those folks, the mob style folks? 196 00:09:00,734 --> 00:09:02,128 Yes, so interesting. 197 00:09:02,128 --> 00:09:04,326 You ask about them, how much time do you have? 198 00:09:04,326 --> 00:09:04,691 Oh, man. 199 00:09:04,691 --> 00:09:06,090 They're all over here all night. 200 00:09:06,090 --> 00:09:08,460 I'll mention just a a couple of them. 201 00:09:08,460 --> 00:09:10,990 One of the things that I talk 202 00:09:10,990 --> 00:09:15,057 about in the book is a concept that is known as 203 00:09:15,057 --> 00:09:16,676 engineered incompetence. 204 00:09:16,676 --> 00:09:20,259 People who study authoritarian regimes throughout history 205 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,437 have come up with this term. 206 00:09:23,437 --> 00:09:26,961 We see it in Putin's Russia, where he surrounds 207 00:09:26,961 --> 00:09:29,998 himself with yes-men, which is perhaps why he 208 00:09:29,998 --> 00:09:32,980 entered Ukraine thinking a war would last a week and 209 00:09:32,980 --> 00:09:35,947 here we are four years later because when you surround 210 00:09:35,947 --> 00:09:38,994 yourself with yes-men they just tell you what you 211 00:09:38,994 --> 00:09:42,418 want to hear and in Trump's second term in contrast 212 00:09:42,418 --> 00:09:44,875 to his first term when he did surround himself with 213 00:09:44,875 --> 00:09:47,576 experienced capable people who'd been leaders in 214 00:09:47,576 --> 00:09:50,460 government before he this time it seems to me has 215 00:09:50,460 --> 00:09:55,200 has surrounded himself with people who will be loyal to him. 216 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,379 Not loyal to the country, not loyal to the Constitution, 217 00:09:58,379 --> 00:10:00,460 but loyal to him. 218 00:10:00,460 --> 00:10:03,259 So, you know, people like Kash Patel. 219 00:10:03,259 --> 00:10:08,139 That's K-A, dollar sign, H, by the way, how we spell Kash. 220 00:10:08,139 --> 00:10:09,080 Kash Patel. 221 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,874 In no other administration would this man be 222 00:10:11,874 --> 00:10:13,460 selected to lead the FBI. 223 00:10:13,460 --> 00:10:15,480 Oh, we're going to get to all those knuckleheads in a minute. 224 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,240 They're down on my list as we go. 225 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,139 You know, Pete Hegseth, another one. 226 00:10:19,139 --> 00:10:20,720 Bondi, let's go on and on and on. 227 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,340 It just seems to me that they were selected 228 00:10:23,340 --> 00:10:27,139 based on their willingness to be subservient to the president 229 00:10:27,139 --> 00:10:32,677 as opposed to their willingness to serve the people. 230 00:10:32,677 --> 00:10:35,759 I remember when Jenny Durkin and I 231 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:36,206 were U.S. 232 00:10:36,206 --> 00:10:38,100 attorneys in the Obama administration. 233 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:40,418 We went down to Washington for our orientation 234 00:10:40,418 --> 00:10:42,700 where we got a lot of training, and one day they took us 235 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:45,000 on a bus to the White House to meet with the president. 236 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:45,778 And it was wonderful. 237 00:10:45,778 --> 00:10:47,859 We got to meet in the East Room where they meet all 238 00:10:47,859 --> 00:10:48,740 the sports teams. 239 00:10:48,740 --> 00:10:50,658 And he came in, and the one thing he said to us 240 00:10:50,658 --> 00:10:52,720 that has always stuck with me is, he said, 241 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,720 remember, even though I appointed you, 242 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:56,860 you do not serve me. 243 00:10:56,860 --> 00:11:00,019 You serve the people and the Constitution. 244 00:11:00,019 --> 00:11:02,899 And I think that's what's missing in this administration. 245 00:11:05,139 --> 00:11:08,120 I know that I'm going to get into a little bit deeper 246 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,894 about the cast of characters and the normalization 247 00:11:11,894 --> 00:11:14,720 of this cruelty and chaos and corruption. 248 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,480 But so stay with me for a minute because this is important. 249 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,139 Getting back and staying with the mob style tactics theme, 250 00:11:23,139 --> 00:11:26,259 I can't help but think, are we seeing what we saw 251 00:11:26,259 --> 00:11:28,720 in New York in the 1990s with the Mollen Commission? 252 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,259 Do you remember when they had the Dirty 30 and Mary Jo 253 00:11:31,259 --> 00:11:32,028 White was a U.S. 254 00:11:32,028 --> 00:11:34,682 attorney? all those dirty cops and there's 255 00:11:34,682 --> 00:11:38,298 that saying that we have you can judge a tree by its fruit 256 00:11:39,519 --> 00:11:42,913 like the rotten the rotten tree and what happened 257 00:11:42,913 --> 00:11:46,139 in the 90s as you know is all these cops well over 258 00:11:46,139 --> 00:11:49,628 30 were into all the the bad stuff corruption 259 00:11:49,628 --> 00:11:53,399 drug dealing all those things I feel like that's 260 00:11:53,399 --> 00:11:55,249 kind of where we're at again. 261 00:11:55,249 --> 00:11:57,253 I feel like it's like 1990 is New 262 00:11:57,253 --> 00:12:00,370 York. People who were sworn to have a shield as a symbol 263 00:12:00,370 --> 00:12:02,690 of protection, upholding the law, did just the 264 00:12:02,690 --> 00:12:05,644 opposite. They use it as a sword against everybody and 265 00:12:05,644 --> 00:12:07,706 then self-dealing and you name it. 266 00:12:07,706 --> 00:12:09,200 So I guess my question was 267 00:12:10,778 --> 00:12:13,836 in the lesson there, what were the guardrails? 268 00:12:13,836 --> 00:12:16,110 Is it brave and courageous people? 269 00:12:16,110 --> 00:12:17,855 Is it the the everyday person 270 00:12:17,855 --> 00:12:18,700 that steps up? 271 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:20,158 Is it that cop that finally says, 272 00:12:20,158 --> 00:12:23,259 I can cross the blue line and tell people what's 273 00:12:23,259 --> 00:12:24,557 really going on? 274 00:12:24,557 --> 00:12:27,100 And do we have those people in 2026? 275 00:12:28,620 --> 00:12:30,918 You know, President Trump has filled his cabinet 276 00:12:30,918 --> 00:12:36,480 with people who are like-minded and who are loyal to him. 277 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,019 And I think that has been his litmus test throughout. 278 00:12:39,019 --> 00:12:41,057 I have read that to get a position 279 00:12:41,057 --> 00:12:44,642 within the Trump administration, you had to give the correct 280 00:12:44,642 --> 00:12:47,918 answer to whether the 2020 election was stolen. 281 00:12:47,918 --> 00:12:51,700 And anybody who would not say what he wanted them to say 282 00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:53,879 was not considered for one of those positions. 283 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:56,548 And what happens, and I've seen this in cases 284 00:12:56,548 --> 00:12:59,644 that I've prosecuted, when you are willing to 285 00:12:59,644 --> 00:13:03,278 lie about something that is so obviously false, 286 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:09,495 you have crossed a line and they own you because to admit 287 00:13:09,495 --> 00:13:13,745 that what you said was a lie is to confess your own lack of 288 00:13:13,745 --> 00:13:17,840 integrity and so once you've crossed that line you're kind of 289 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,604 you know in for a penny in for a pound and so I don't expect 290 00:13:22,604 --> 00:13:25,399 people like Pete Hegseth or J.D. 291 00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:28,019 Vance or Marco Rubio to say, you know what? 292 00:13:28,019 --> 00:13:28,769 I was wrong. 293 00:13:28,769 --> 00:13:29,966 This guy is a crook. 294 00:13:29,966 --> 00:13:32,432 I think it's going to be up to all of us. 295 00:13:32,432 --> 00:13:34,480 I think the media has a role to 296 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,639 play. I think historians have a role to play. 297 00:13:37,639 --> 00:13:39,754 I think teachers have a role to play. 298 00:13:39,754 --> 00:13:41,870 But I think all of us in educating our 299 00:13:41,870 --> 00:13:44,519 fellow citizens so that that we can take our power 300 00:13:44,519 --> 00:13:45,639 back at the ballot box. 301 00:13:45,639 --> 00:13:46,177 Thank you. 302 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:55,740 So, if you don't mind naming names, I don't mind, 303 00:13:55,740 --> 00:13:57,278 and I have those same names coming up. 304 00:13:58,399 --> 00:13:59,860 Who do you believe? 305 00:13:59,860 --> 00:14:01,418 We have these good people out here, 306 00:14:01,418 --> 00:14:03,759 and you see people in the No Kings March, 307 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:05,918 and you see people stepping forward and leaving justice 308 00:14:05,918 --> 00:14:07,620 and saying, I'm not going to work for this administration, 309 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:08,980 you're not going to have leverage on me, 310 00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:10,220 you're not going to do this mob stuff. 311 00:14:10,220 --> 00:14:12,000 I believe in the Constitution. 312 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,399 I'm trying to do the right thing. 313 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:17,139 And we've normalized such brutal behavior, obscene behavior. 314 00:14:17,139 --> 00:14:19,860 And I think a lot of us saw it coming in 2016. 315 00:14:19,860 --> 00:14:22,057 We all knew who he was in 2016. 316 00:14:22,057 --> 00:14:25,509 So who do you believe right now in 2026 are these 317 00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:27,720 brave and courageous people, 318 00:14:28,740 --> 00:14:32,197 like you, that are writing these kind of books on 319 00:14:32,197 --> 00:14:34,100 the shows and other folks? 320 00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:37,374 Can you name some names to tell us who are those people, 321 00:14:37,374 --> 00:14:40,556 who are those changemakers, who are still guiding us 322 00:14:40,556 --> 00:14:42,278 that we can still believe in? 323 00:14:42,278 --> 00:14:43,360 I'll give you two names. 324 00:14:44,379 --> 00:14:46,019 How about Renee Good and Alex Pretti? 325 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:49,600 I think that... 326 00:14:51,658 --> 00:14:56,399 And thousands of other people whose names are unknown to us. 327 00:14:56,399 --> 00:14:59,556 You know, certainly there are people out there who are 328 00:14:59,556 --> 00:15:02,711 speaking out, some members of Congress, mostly not of 329 00:15:02,711 --> 00:15:05,725 the president's own party, but some of them who have 330 00:15:05,725 --> 00:15:08,812 become lame ducks, who've lost their elections, are 331 00:15:08,812 --> 00:15:12,456 suddenly finding their voice, some Republicans in Congress. 332 00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:16,355 But I really think a very good story of success are 333 00:15:16,355 --> 00:15:20,538 just the good people of Minneapolis who fought back. 334 00:15:24,057 --> 00:15:27,860 And it came with a price for some people. 335 00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:30,860 I mean, you know, Rene Good and Alex Pretty lost their lives. 336 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:35,298 We saw some people indicted recently. 337 00:15:35,298 --> 00:15:37,480 There was a group of 15 people who were indicted. 338 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,865 There was that other group of people who protested in 339 00:15:39,865 --> 00:15:41,220 the church who were indicted. 340 00:15:41,220 --> 00:15:44,057 But there were so many people who said, 341 00:15:44,057 --> 00:15:46,639 we are going to help our neighbors who can't 342 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:48,000 go outside to get food. 343 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,128 We are going to stand up. 344 00:15:50,128 --> 00:15:53,320 We are going to peacefully protest. 345 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,937 And ultimately, I think they won, right? 346 00:15:56,937 --> 00:15:58,639 They saw ICE leave. 347 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:00,875 They saw Gregory Bovino. 348 00:16:00,875 --> 00:16:05,451 He was the very cruel Customs and Border Protection 349 00:16:05,451 --> 00:16:10,240 leader who got driven out and forced into retirement. 350 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,600 And so I think it's a great example, and it inspires me when 351 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,960 we see ordinary people who can say, no, we own our streets. 352 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,600 And certainly you can enforce immigration law. 353 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,500 That's fine. 354 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:26,846 But the way you're doing it with such cruelty and dehumanizing, 355 00:16:26,846 --> 00:16:30,783 I think one of the goals, you know, if you look at the social 356 00:16:30,783 --> 00:16:34,638 media of the White House or their web page, it's all these 357 00:16:34,638 --> 00:16:38,408 memes that depict immigrants as less than human and are 358 00:16:38,408 --> 00:16:42,019 gleeful about the cruelty that's inflicted on them. 359 00:16:42,019 --> 00:16:43,860 You know, showing chains. 360 00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:48,440 Do you remember when those men were deported to El Salvador? 361 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,580 And they posted that video, like Hollywood quality, 362 00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:53,394 showing these men forced to their knees 363 00:16:53,394 --> 00:16:54,440 and their head shaved. 364 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,740 I mean, that was an effort to not only dehumanize them, 365 00:16:58,740 --> 00:17:02,931 but I think to dehumanize us, to make us see our fellow 366 00:17:02,931 --> 00:17:07,288 humans as less than, as other, and to cheer Trump on in 367 00:17:07,288 --> 00:17:09,798 this immigration enforcement. 368 00:17:09,798 --> 00:17:12,460 It's a real tactic to divide and conquer. 369 00:17:12,460 --> 00:17:14,740 And I think the story of Minneapolis, 370 00:17:14,740 --> 00:17:18,267 the people of Minneapolis, have shown us that 371 00:17:18,267 --> 00:17:21,230 united together we can defeat that 372 00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:22,400 kind of effort. 373 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,500 Yep, and a good friend of ours, Peggy Flanagan, 374 00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:28,278 is running for the Senate. 375 00:17:28,278 --> 00:17:30,057 I'm not supposed to be political, but she's a friend. 376 00:17:31,140 --> 00:17:32,798 So you wear your necklace when you see her. 377 00:17:32,798 --> 00:17:33,711 tell her it's from Deborah. 378 00:17:33,711 --> 00:17:34,625 I mean, don't give it to her. 379 00:17:34,625 --> 00:17:35,700 Just tell her you got it from her. 380 00:17:37,460 --> 00:17:39,634 So you did something really interesting in your 381 00:17:39,634 --> 00:17:40,778 book that I appreciated, 382 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,932 a real literary tool or style. 383 00:17:43,932 --> 00:17:47,798 Your book is divided into three sections, and each section 384 00:17:47,798 --> 00:17:51,432 begins with a victim or a villain or a saint or 385 00:17:51,432 --> 00:17:55,259 a situation, and then you kind of go through the 386 00:17:55,259 --> 00:17:57,720 the process and the guardrails about what happened. 387 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,140 And then you kind of tie it up at the end, 388 00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:01,880 like this is how the system's supposed to work. 389 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,640 This is how the courts are supposed to work. 390 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,440 This is the rule of law. 391 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,344 These are how these, how these, if you have these 392 00:18:08,344 --> 00:18:10,730 corrupt systems, this is how they developed 393 00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:12,337 and this is how we fixed it. 394 00:18:12,337 --> 00:18:14,960 And when that type of corruption, 395 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,538 chaos and cruelty was uncovered, 396 00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:21,960 we responded as a nation with a rule of law. 397 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,547 And so what I wanted to ask you is, what happened to 398 00:18:25,547 --> 00:18:27,557 us in our guardrails today? 399 00:18:27,557 --> 00:18:29,700 What the hell happened? 400 00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:34,566 Why did we become so normalized, even though we knew who this 401 00:18:34,566 --> 00:18:37,000 man was in 16, gone, then back? 402 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,740 What happened to us? 403 00:18:38,740 --> 00:18:40,057 Are we victims? 404 00:18:40,057 --> 00:18:41,920 Are we innocent bystanders? 405 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:42,940 Are we enablers? 406 00:18:44,097 --> 00:18:46,837 Tell me who we are right now from that. 407 00:18:46,837 --> 00:18:47,851 What happened? 408 00:18:47,851 --> 00:18:50,413 Well, I think that, I don't think Donald 409 00:18:50,413 --> 00:18:54,028 Trump created our situation, but I think he exploited 410 00:18:54,028 --> 00:18:57,029 it. I think that we now live in an age where we 411 00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:59,382 have a real plurality in our country. 412 00:18:59,382 --> 00:19:01,865 You know, when he talks about make America great 413 00:19:01,865 --> 00:19:04,970 again, I think he's referring to a time in, I don't know, the 414 00:19:04,970 --> 00:19:08,219 1950s when America was great for some, but not for most of us, 415 00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:11,538 right I mean the America he wants to go back to 416 00:19:11,538 --> 00:19:15,038 again is a time when white Christian men were on 417 00:19:15,038 --> 00:19:17,269 top of the pyramid and I think we live in a 418 00:19:17,269 --> 00:19:20,038 time now when there's certainly a place for white 419 00:19:20,038 --> 00:19:23,384 Christian men I'm married to one I have three sons 420 00:19:23,384 --> 00:19:26,317 I love white Christian men but I do but we all 421 00:19:26,317 --> 00:19:29,317 We all want to have a place at the table. 422 00:19:29,317 --> 00:19:33,759 And in Donald Trump's America of Greatness, 423 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:37,140 it was a time when women were second-class citizens, 424 00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:41,519 when minorities were on the bottom rung of society, 425 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:45,740 when the LGBTQ community was invisible. 426 00:19:45,740 --> 00:19:48,519 And I think there's a goal that they kind of liked it that way. 427 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:51,720 But here we are in 2026, and all of these 428 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,057 different groups want their seat at the table. 429 00:19:54,057 --> 00:19:56,660 They want their voices heard, understandably. 430 00:19:56,660 --> 00:19:58,380 And that makes the world kind of messy 431 00:19:58,380 --> 00:20:00,240 because we have a lot of differences of opinion 432 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,337 about how things are supposed to go. 433 00:20:02,337 --> 00:20:05,420 And so rather than listen to those voices 434 00:20:05,420 --> 00:20:10,259 and try to find places where we can be united and common ground, 435 00:20:10,259 --> 00:20:14,940 President Trump has worked to stoke divisions in society. 436 00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:19,180 If we could ever get working-class white people 437 00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:22,117 together with working class minorities, 438 00:20:22,117 --> 00:20:24,740 that would be a very powerful voting block. 439 00:20:24,740 --> 00:20:28,817 And so instead, he stokes division between those groups. 440 00:20:28,817 --> 00:20:31,557 And when he says, you're forgotten, you're left behind, 441 00:20:31,557 --> 00:20:34,900 you're worse off than you were in your parents' generation, 442 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:36,097 they were. 443 00:20:36,097 --> 00:20:40,519 And the reason is not the DEI that he blames it on 444 00:20:40,519 --> 00:20:45,759 or the immigrants or the LGBTQ community or minorities. 445 00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:47,885 It's because of policies starting in the 446 00:20:47,885 --> 00:20:49,140 Reagan administration 447 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,640 that benefit the wealthy and harm the working class. 448 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,900 The tax rate was like 79% in the 1970s. 449 00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:00,547 Now we all pay the same rate, unless you're Donald Trump, 450 00:21:00,547 --> 00:21:01,680 in which case you pay nothing. 451 00:21:03,380 --> 00:21:06,220 The system is rigged against us. 452 00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:08,960 It is skewed in favor of the wealthy. 453 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:14,857 But to protect the wealthy, let's divide people based on 454 00:21:14,857 --> 00:21:18,200 race and class and religion. 455 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,400 And that way, if we're all fighting with each other, 456 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,759 then he can continue these policies 457 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:26,200 because our strongest loyalty 458 00:21:27,460 --> 00:21:30,920 is to our racial and ethnic and religious identities 459 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,298 entities and not to our pocketbooks. 460 00:21:34,298 --> 00:21:38,178 And I think that is something that Donald Trump has exploited 461 00:21:38,178 --> 00:21:41,519 and it's why we find ourselves in this predicament. 462 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:44,211 So you bring up a real interesting point, and I really 463 00:21:44,211 --> 00:21:46,365 mean this because I'm taking notes and of course 464 00:21:46,365 --> 00:21:48,000 you know me, I already took notes beforehand. 465 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,980 So 250 years, our country. 466 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:54,617 Well, I was already here, so I don't know about you guys. 467 00:21:54,617 --> 00:21:57,038 But I'm a member of the Blackfeet Nation. 468 00:21:57,038 --> 00:21:58,500 Born and raised on the Puyallup Res. 469 00:21:58,500 --> 00:21:59,480 My stepdad's Yakima. 470 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,674 Can I just ask you this on a real, I was going 471 00:22:03,674 --> 00:22:06,074 to say personal level, like it's just you 472 00:22:06,074 --> 00:22:07,220 and I sitting here. 473 00:22:07,220 --> 00:22:09,400 Were we always these people, though? 474 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,160 Did Trump really show us who we are? 475 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,623 Did he make us hold up a mirror and realize, 476 00:22:14,623 --> 00:22:17,586 and that's okay about, we have biases, we have 477 00:22:17,586 --> 00:22:19,557 prejudices, we have flaws. 478 00:22:19,557 --> 00:22:23,617 But America was supposed to be this great experiment idea 479 00:22:23,617 --> 00:22:26,538 that we so transcended above that. 480 00:22:26,538 --> 00:22:29,940 And then all of a sudden, this person shows up. 481 00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:34,778 And maybe, maybe, he did show us who we are. 482 00:22:34,778 --> 00:22:35,278 Well, sure. 483 00:22:35,278 --> 00:22:37,617 I mean, if you look at our nation's history, 484 00:22:37,617 --> 00:22:41,240 We had European settlers come here and murder 485 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,960 indigenous peoples. 486 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,019 We had plantation owners who enslaved others 487 00:22:48,019 --> 00:22:52,000 and imported people, kidnapped people from their 488 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,577 homeland and enslaved them. 489 00:22:53,577 --> 00:22:58,356 We had women without the right to vote until 1920. 490 00:22:58,357 --> 00:23:01,306 We've seen discrimination against groups 491 00:23:01,306 --> 00:23:02,778 based on disability. 492 00:23:03,857 --> 00:23:09,420 The LGBTQ community has been oppressed to this day. 493 00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:13,536 So we are a country that has certainly had 494 00:23:13,536 --> 00:23:16,317 moments, I think, of shame. 495 00:23:16,317 --> 00:23:19,730 But one of the things I always felt, especially as 496 00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:23,141 a woman in my lifetime, it felt like we were making 497 00:23:23,141 --> 00:23:27,383 progress, that certainly we've had problems in our country, 498 00:23:27,383 --> 00:23:30,960 but that we were moving toward a more perfect union. 499 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,538 And I feel like in the past 10 years, we've taken not just one 500 00:23:35,538 --> 00:23:37,778 step back, but 10 steps back. 501 00:23:37,778 --> 00:23:41,689 I think about the advances we made as women, at least, 502 00:23:41,689 --> 00:23:43,200 in the 1970s and 80s. 503 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,078 And it was really transformational to see 504 00:23:46,078 --> 00:23:49,617 all of the women in office and other kinds of things. 505 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,441 But now with every group, there is this resentment that 506 00:23:57,441 --> 00:24:01,459 people feel like if you are lifted up, somehow that is 507 00:24:01,459 --> 00:24:03,557 pushing other people down. 508 00:24:03,557 --> 00:24:06,759 But did we become complacent, though, with, you know, 509 00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:09,460 okay, our people got the right to vote in 1924. 510 00:24:09,460 --> 00:24:12,640 We go back and forth with dates and times and all of that. 511 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,259 But do we get complacent in thinking, 512 00:24:15,259 --> 00:24:19,180 and we talk about the third wave of feminism, 513 00:24:19,180 --> 00:24:21,000 and now we're talking about a billionaire class. 514 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,959 Do we get complacent with capitalism and greed and money, 515 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,486 and now we have a billionaire class, we 516 00:24:26,486 --> 00:24:27,440 have the Epstein class? 517 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,057 Do we just get complacent and basically just assume 518 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,380 that the world would just keep spinning the way we saw it, 519 00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:37,259 and we wouldn't really have to fight for anything anymore 520 00:24:37,259 --> 00:24:38,837 until this person showed up? 521 00:24:38,837 --> 00:24:41,798 No, and I don't think we should blame us as individuals. 522 00:24:41,798 --> 00:24:46,798 I blame people who have advanced policies 523 00:24:46,798 --> 00:24:49,740 that make money more important than any other value in society. 524 00:24:55,317 --> 00:25:00,200 After Watergate, Congress passed a number of very good statutes. 525 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,380 Many of them were immediately challenged. 526 00:25:02,380 --> 00:25:03,880 Many of them were upheld. 527 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,826 One of them that got struck down happened with the Federal 528 00:25:08,826 --> 00:25:14,290 Election Campaign Act that put limits on the amount of campaign 529 00:25:14,290 --> 00:25:17,180 expenditures people could make. 530 00:25:17,180 --> 00:25:21,747 And they said money equals speech, and therefore the 531 00:25:21,747 --> 00:25:27,038 First Amendment forbids any restrictions on expenditures. 532 00:25:27,038 --> 00:25:30,971 So I can cap how much I can donate to your campaign, 533 00:25:30,971 --> 00:25:34,518 but if I want to pay money for an ad that either 534 00:25:34,518 --> 00:25:38,260 supports you or attacks you, the Supreme Court said in 535 00:25:38,260 --> 00:25:38,881 Buckley v. 536 00:25:38,881 --> 00:25:41,699 Valeo in the 1970s, that is unconstitutional. 537 00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:44,077 So sky's the limit. 538 00:25:44,077 --> 00:25:47,355 Then fast forward to 2010 when the Supreme Court 539 00:25:47,355 --> 00:25:50,808 decides Citizens United and says those same rights 540 00:25:50,808 --> 00:25:53,876 now apply to corporations and organizations. 541 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,636 That opens the floodgates to dark money and super PACs. 542 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,689 And so now all those billionaires who are 543 00:25:59,689 --> 00:26:02,096 trying to protect all of that wealth inequality 544 00:26:02,097 --> 00:26:04,653 inequality that they have amassed over the 545 00:26:04,653 --> 00:26:07,278 years, can spend like drunken sailors to try 546 00:26:07,278 --> 00:26:08,960 to keep it that way. 547 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,193 And so that's why we can't pass reasonable gun reform or, 548 00:26:13,193 --> 00:26:17,423 you know, protect kids in our schools or do any of the kinds 549 00:26:17,423 --> 00:26:21,557 of things that make common sense, things that most voters 550 00:26:21,557 --> 00:26:26,508 favor because big money is driving us in a direction 551 00:26:26,508 --> 00:26:29,038 to support the status quo. 552 00:26:29,038 --> 00:26:31,530 That is really a good lead into my next question 553 00:26:31,530 --> 00:26:34,595 and I have to congratulate myself on my questions and 554 00:26:34,595 --> 00:26:36,701 how I thought it the flow would go. 555 00:26:36,701 --> 00:26:38,939 This is what happens when you read the whole 556 00:26:38,939 --> 00:26:41,057 book and you know you have a professor of law and you 557 00:26:41,057 --> 00:26:43,317 listen to the podcast and you're basically afraid 558 00:26:43,317 --> 00:26:43,640 of her. 559 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,837 So you know that But you have to know your stuff. 560 00:26:45,837 --> 00:26:48,778 And I know Thaddeus is out there and understands that. 561 00:26:48,778 --> 00:26:51,038 So the other question, which is great, what you were saying, 562 00:26:52,038 --> 00:26:55,519 why did so many businesses in courts and media outlets 563 00:26:55,519 --> 00:26:57,980 and companies and law firms and political leaders, 564 00:26:57,980 --> 00:27:00,057 why did they all just... 565 00:27:00,057 --> 00:27:01,659 I was going to drop an F-bomb. 566 00:27:01,660 --> 00:27:03,939 Why did they just capitulate? 567 00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:04,880 Capitulate is a good word. 568 00:27:07,259 --> 00:27:10,557 I can answer that question in two words, 569 00:27:10,557 --> 00:27:12,019 and those words are... 570 00:27:12,019 --> 00:27:14,700 Cowardice? Fear and greed. 571 00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:15,577 Oh, my God. 572 00:27:15,577 --> 00:27:16,817 I had it right here. 573 00:27:16,817 --> 00:27:17,597 Is that what you wrote down? 574 00:27:17,597 --> 00:27:19,778 I've got it on my bingo card right there. 575 00:27:19,778 --> 00:27:21,640 Fear, greed, power, cowardice. 576 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,915 So, you know, law firms, these big, powerful global 577 00:27:24,915 --> 00:27:26,519 law firms were attacked. 578 00:27:27,660 --> 00:27:29,239 Donald Trump extorted them. 579 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,740 He issued these executive orders falsely accusing 580 00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:37,720 them of engaging in lawfare simply for hiring 581 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,046 some of the people who went after Donald Trump, like Robert 582 00:27:41,046 --> 00:27:44,807 Mueller and Andrew Weissmann, who worked on his team, or Mark 583 00:27:44,807 --> 00:27:49,097 Pomerantz, who worked for the Manhattan DA's office, 584 00:27:49,097 --> 00:27:52,337 Mark Elias, who represented the Clinton campaign. 585 00:27:52,337 --> 00:27:56,659 And he said, you law firms, Perkins Coie was 586 00:27:56,659 --> 00:27:58,699 one who fought back. 587 00:27:58,700 --> 00:27:59,740 Let's hear it for them. 588 00:27:59,740 --> 00:28:00,500 It's in the book. 589 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,884 But the conditions were things like, you are going to lose 590 00:28:06,884 --> 00:28:09,786 your security clearances, we will never hire any 591 00:28:09,786 --> 00:28:11,519 of your lawyers in the federal government, 592 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:15,097 and you cannot enter a federal building, including courthouses. 593 00:28:15,097 --> 00:28:17,539 If you're a lawyer, good luck practicing law if you 594 00:28:17,539 --> 00:28:18,880 can't go into a courthouse. 595 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,240 So this is a real mob tactic. 596 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,595 Inflict pain on your rival or your critic and coerce 597 00:28:25,595 --> 00:28:30,660 them to come to the table to negotiate their own punishment. 598 00:28:30,660 --> 00:28:32,180 And that's what he did to them. 599 00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:34,988 And he said, you know, give me some free pro bono hours 600 00:28:34,988 --> 00:28:36,519 and we'll make it all go away. 601 00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:38,778 It's like saying, nice restaurant you got here. 602 00:28:38,778 --> 00:28:40,538 It'd be a shame if something should happen to it. 603 00:28:40,538 --> 00:28:42,951 But if you like, I can watch it for you if you 604 00:28:42,951 --> 00:28:44,396 just pay me $5,000 a week. 605 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,480 I'll make sure nothing happens. 606 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,759 You know, a little protection money. 607 00:28:46,759 --> 00:28:48,337 That's exactly what this was. 608 00:28:48,337 --> 00:28:50,255 And it was so disappointing to see so many of 609 00:28:50,255 --> 00:28:53,577 these law firms say, okay, we will pay you this. 610 00:28:53,577 --> 00:28:57,692 I think when I say fear, I think they were afraid that if they 611 00:28:57,692 --> 00:29:01,460 did not go along with this, that bad things would happen 612 00:29:01,460 --> 00:29:03,220 to them and their clients. 613 00:29:03,220 --> 00:29:06,875 You know, their clients are in battles with the federal 614 00:29:06,875 --> 00:29:10,294 government over approval of mergers, litigation, 615 00:29:10,294 --> 00:29:12,596 enforcement actions, licensing. 616 00:29:12,597 --> 00:29:15,567 And so they feared that President Trump would 617 00:29:15,567 --> 00:29:17,759 interfere with those interests. 618 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:21,509 But I also think greed, because as we said, the four law 619 00:29:21,509 --> 00:29:25,759 firms that did agree to fight this, all won, understandably, 620 00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:27,759 as everyone knew they would. 621 00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:32,401 I think the firms didn't want to risk losing their clients 622 00:29:32,401 --> 00:29:36,269 and losing the business deals that makes some of 623 00:29:36,269 --> 00:29:41,008 these law firm partners, the average salary in one of these 624 00:29:41,008 --> 00:29:43,038 firms, $6 million a year. 625 00:29:43,038 --> 00:29:45,875 You know, it would be a little tough to settle for, say, 626 00:29:45,875 --> 00:29:47,200 I don't know, $5 million. 627 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:48,376 I don't know if I could do it. 628 00:29:48,380 --> 00:29:49,660 I don't know if I could do it. 629 00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:51,576 So I think there was a little bit of greed involved. 630 00:29:51,577 --> 00:29:54,026 But I think one of the things that they're 631 00:29:54,026 --> 00:29:57,116 learning now is what I saw in those extortion cases, 632 00:29:57,117 --> 00:30:00,403 which is people think, I'm going to pay off the 633 00:30:00,403 --> 00:30:03,585 extortionist this one time, and then everything's 634 00:30:03,585 --> 00:30:04,396 going to be okay. 635 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,769 And what they realize is the extortionist keeps 636 00:30:07,769 --> 00:30:11,057 coming back for more again and again and again. 637 00:30:11,057 --> 00:30:13,180 It's like giving your lunch money to the bully. 638 00:30:13,180 --> 00:30:16,640 They realize you're an easy mark and they just keep coming back. 639 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,886 And so although those law firms paid in the form of pro bono 640 00:30:19,886 --> 00:30:23,136 legal hours and they probably thought this is a good deal. 641 00:30:23,140 --> 00:30:25,116 We're going to do pro bono legal services anyway. 642 00:30:25,117 --> 00:30:27,923 we just have to direct them toward President 643 00:30:27,923 --> 00:30:29,211 Trump's pet causes. 644 00:30:29,211 --> 00:30:30,876 But of course what that did 645 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,577 is it took them off the playing field from challenging 646 00:30:34,577 --> 00:30:35,645 Trump's cases. 647 00:30:35,645 --> 00:30:39,102 They couldn't be on the other side of the V if 648 00:30:39,102 --> 00:30:42,971 they were representing Trump's pet causes. 649 00:30:42,971 --> 00:30:45,557 In his first administration it was 650 00:30:45,557 --> 00:30:48,719 these big law firms that challenged some of his 651 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,534 executive orders and his travel bans so this time 652 00:30:52,534 --> 00:30:55,991 they've been neutralized and they've lost clients 653 00:30:55,991 --> 00:30:58,636 they've lost lawyers I know many of my law students 654 00:30:58,636 --> 00:31:01,188 don't want to work for these law firms that caved in 655 00:31:01,188 --> 00:31:02,337 and you know as a client 656 00:31:06,136 --> 00:31:08,346 how can I expect you to stand up for me if you won't 657 00:31:08,346 --> 00:31:09,999 even stand up for yourself Right. 658 00:31:09,999 --> 00:31:12,634 So I think they have lost again and again as a 659 00:31:12,634 --> 00:31:13,586 result of this. 660 00:31:13,586 --> 00:31:16,151 It may have seemed like a short-term gain, 661 00:31:16,151 --> 00:31:19,519 but I think in the end it's causing them long-term pain. 662 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:22,239 So we're going to move away from lawyers for a minute. 663 00:31:22,239 --> 00:31:25,239 And I want to go to the media, the media outlets. 664 00:31:25,239 --> 00:31:28,459 We were talking about CBS, 60 Minutes, ABC. 665 00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:31,538 Now, we know with business there's money, there's 666 00:31:31,538 --> 00:31:33,076 greed, there's mergers. 667 00:31:33,077 --> 00:31:36,117 But let's just go over to this kind of access 668 00:31:36,117 --> 00:31:39,920 journalism and media outlets that have capitulated. 669 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,680 And we can, you know, Bezos bought Washington Post. 670 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,356 that is the Washington Post he bought. 671 00:31:45,357 --> 00:31:48,057 So let's talk about the media piece of that, 672 00:31:48,057 --> 00:31:50,739 when they capitulated, so many of them quickly, 673 00:31:50,739 --> 00:31:53,660 and we saw what happened with late-night talk folks. 674 00:31:53,660 --> 00:31:56,193 You know, what are your thoughts about that side of 675 00:31:56,193 --> 00:31:57,577 the capitulation? 676 00:31:57,577 --> 00:31:59,097 Yeah, I think it's been tragic, really, 677 00:31:59,097 --> 00:32:01,460 and again, I think it's fear and greed. 678 00:32:01,460 --> 00:32:05,278 You know, the First Amendment is so important 679 00:32:05,278 --> 00:32:07,439 because it guarantees the right to free press, 680 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,000 and I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said 681 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,980 said something to the effect of, you know, 682 00:32:10,980 --> 00:32:13,750 were I to have to choose between a free government 683 00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:15,640 and a free press, I would not hesitate 684 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:16,577 to choose the latter 685 00:32:17,636 --> 00:32:21,165 because the exposure and the information is so 686 00:32:21,165 --> 00:32:23,337 essential to a free society. 687 00:32:23,337 --> 00:32:27,680 And in fact, I talk about in the book some lessons from history, 688 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,636 and one of them is the role of the free press so many times 689 00:32:31,636 --> 00:32:35,739 in exposing injustices in our country that led to change. 690 00:32:35,739 --> 00:32:39,577 the Civil Rights Movement, the Watergate scandal, 691 00:32:39,577 --> 00:32:43,038 the Gilded Age, so many of the changes that came about 692 00:32:43,038 --> 00:32:45,700 came about because of public awareness 693 00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:46,959 brought out by the media. 694 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,419 So, of course, a mob-style leader fears the media 695 00:32:51,419 --> 00:32:53,919 and wants to silence them and control them. 696 00:32:53,919 --> 00:32:56,597 And so one of the things we saw President Trump do 697 00:32:56,597 --> 00:33:00,376 is to file these frivolous lawsuits against ABC and CBS 698 00:33:00,376 --> 00:33:04,759 CBS and some of these others in an effort to silence them. 699 00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:08,113 You know, defamation and fraud and other kinds of things, 700 00:33:08,113 --> 00:33:09,857 seeking millions of dollars. 701 00:33:09,857 --> 00:33:12,920 And what was so stunning to me is how quickly they caved. 702 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,182 So ABC paid a settlement when George Stephanopoulos said some 703 00:33:16,182 --> 00:33:17,939 things that were literally true. 704 00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:18,980 Rape instead of... 705 00:33:18,980 --> 00:33:20,510 About rape with E. 706 00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:21,739 Jean Carroll. 707 00:33:21,739 --> 00:33:25,778 and then CBS caved over a lawsuit about 60 Minutes 708 00:33:25,778 --> 00:33:29,856 where they get this, edited the interview of Kamala Harris. 709 00:33:29,857 --> 00:33:32,636 I don't know of a single television program 710 00:33:32,636 --> 00:33:37,356 that does not edit an interview that they do with anybody. 711 00:33:37,357 --> 00:33:42,057 I mean, the show is called 60 Minutes, right? 712 00:33:42,057 --> 00:33:45,317 It's not 72 Minutes or 84 Minutes, it's 60 Minutes. 713 00:33:45,317 --> 00:33:46,880 Of course they had to edit it. 714 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,500 And he claimed it was fraud for them to edit that. 715 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:50,337 And they caved. 716 00:33:50,337 --> 00:33:53,278 They paid and they agreed to produce the transcript. 717 00:33:53,278 --> 00:33:54,896 And they apologized. 718 00:33:54,896 --> 00:33:56,019 And why do they do that? 719 00:33:56,019 --> 00:33:58,259 I think it's because of fear. 720 00:33:58,259 --> 00:33:59,959 They don't want them to keep coming after them. 721 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:01,979 They don't want to lose their broadcast license. 722 00:34:01,980 --> 00:34:04,880 Remember Brendan Carr made some threats about that. 723 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,180 But I also think there's greed. 724 00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:10,079 You know, we live in this world of consolidation. 725 00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:13,297 And these media companies, you know, keep buying each other. 726 00:34:13,297 --> 00:34:15,313 I think we're all owned by Paramount Plus 727 00:34:15,313 --> 00:34:16,438 these days, by the way. 728 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,159 And it's billions of dollars. 729 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:21,539 And so, you know, if I pay $6 million, 730 00:34:21,539 --> 00:34:25,219 does that mean I get the $100 billion merger deal? 731 00:34:25,219 --> 00:34:26,239 Well, okay, right? 732 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,159 It's just the cost of doing business. 733 00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,250 But I think they're selling more than the 734 00:34:31,250 --> 00:34:33,159 settlement of this case. 735 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:34,418 They are selling their souls. 736 00:34:34,418 --> 00:34:36,219 They're selling the First Amendment. 737 00:34:36,219 --> 00:34:40,402 And I think that we as consumers have power of boycotts and 738 00:34:40,402 --> 00:34:44,237 other things to tell them that we don't agree with it. 739 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,958 I saw something recently that ABC is asking 740 00:34:46,958 --> 00:34:48,318 its viewers to share. 741 00:34:48,318 --> 00:34:51,108 There's currently a battle between the president and 742 00:34:51,108 --> 00:34:53,833 now The View and talking about the equal time rule and 743 00:34:53,833 --> 00:34:56,947 some other kinds of things, some very heavy-handed 744 00:34:56,947 --> 00:35:00,998 tactics to try to get them to control who their guests are. 745 00:35:00,998 --> 00:35:05,257 And they've asked the public to share with the government 746 00:35:05,257 --> 00:35:07,724 how they feel about that, which I think is 747 00:35:07,724 --> 00:35:08,559 kind of interesting. 748 00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:12,119 So, you know, we have the power, and we shouldn't forget that. 749 00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:14,056 Well, you kind of answered a second question, but 750 00:35:14,056 --> 00:35:14,858 I'm going to go back. 751 00:35:14,860 --> 00:35:17,159 I had one of two, but you kind of went into the second, 752 00:35:17,159 --> 00:35:18,998 but I'm going to ask you this because I might 753 00:35:18,998 --> 00:35:19,918 tie it back together. 754 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,099 You made a really nice quote in your book from Maureen 755 00:35:24,099 --> 00:35:28,177 Comey, Comey's daughter, who was fired or left or resigned 756 00:35:28,177 --> 00:35:29,797 from Department of Justice. 757 00:35:29,797 --> 00:35:32,902 And she made a statement, and you quoted it, and I wrote it 758 00:35:32,902 --> 00:35:34,619 down because it seemed very... 759 00:35:34,619 --> 00:35:38,387 It just was so timely for me, when she said, "Fear 760 00:35:38,387 --> 00:35:40,458 is the tool of the tyrant." 761 00:35:40,460 --> 00:35:43,614 Talk to us a little bit about what that means, particularly 762 00:35:43,614 --> 00:35:45,699 in your book, The Fix, in real real time. 763 00:35:45,699 --> 00:35:47,500 And you kind of touched on it already 764 00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:49,840 with the cast of characters and the people that 765 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,731 Trump surrounded himself, Bondi, Patel, Hegseth, Rubio, Miller, 766 00:35:53,731 --> 00:35:57,431 J.D. Vance, and the whole Trump family, Lee, Leavitt, 767 00:35:57,431 --> 00:35:58,190 all of them. 768 00:35:58,190 --> 00:35:59,706 So talk to us about that. 769 00:35:59,706 --> 00:36:01,599 Fear is the tool of the tyrant. 770 00:36:01,599 --> 00:36:04,920 Yeah. So Maureen Comey, of course, was a prosecutor, 771 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,938 daughter of Jim Comey, the former FBI director, 772 00:36:07,938 --> 00:36:12,018 who led the Russia investigation during Trump's first term 773 00:36:12,018 --> 00:36:13,320 and has been an outspoken critic. 774 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,797 He himself has, of course, been indicted twice. 775 00:36:15,797 --> 00:36:19,579 First one didn't stick for false statements before Congress. 776 00:36:19,579 --> 00:36:22,759 Now he's been indicted for posting a picture of seashells, 777 00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:25,938 forming the words 8647. 778 00:36:25,938 --> 00:36:27,458 We're not supposed to say that out loud, I guess. 779 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,559 Even though you can go to Amazon right now 780 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:33,027 and find T-shirts and caps and all kinds of 781 00:36:33,027 --> 00:36:34,297 things that say 8647. 782 00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:38,447 But this was his daughter, a very accomplished 783 00:36:38,447 --> 00:36:41,119 prosecutor in the Southern District of New York, 784 00:36:41,119 --> 00:36:43,679 a very fine prosecutor's office. 785 00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:45,498 She led the Epstein investigation 786 00:36:45,498 --> 00:36:49,501 and handled the trial of Ghislaine Maxwell 787 00:36:49,501 --> 00:36:51,059 and Sean Combs, 788 00:36:52,219 --> 00:36:54,936 handled them very well, and one day out of the blue got 789 00:36:54,936 --> 00:36:57,690 an email from Pam Bondi saying, pursuant to Article 2, 790 00:36:57,690 --> 00:37:00,588 you are hereby separated and terminated from the 791 00:37:00,588 --> 00:37:02,259 Department of Justice. 792 00:37:02,259 --> 00:37:04,059 Despite the fact that she has civil service 793 00:37:04,059 --> 00:37:06,358 protections and other things, she has filed a lawsuit 794 00:37:06,358 --> 00:37:07,199 to challenge that. 795 00:37:07,199 --> 00:37:10,518 She should win, but of course the point is to punish her 796 00:37:10,518 --> 00:37:11,880 and to make her lose her job. 797 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,599 Even if she wins, who would want to go back to that climate? 798 00:37:16,599 --> 00:37:20,458 But she sent this in an email to her colleagues before she left, 799 00:37:20,458 --> 00:37:23,786 And she said, you know, please continue to do your 800 00:37:23,786 --> 00:37:27,356 important work here and don't be afraid because fear 801 00:37:27,356 --> 00:37:29,059 is the tool of the tyrant. 802 00:37:29,059 --> 00:37:33,871 And that is the big goal here, right, to these executive 803 00:37:33,871 --> 00:37:37,951 orders, the punishment, the cruelty, the show 804 00:37:37,951 --> 00:37:42,239 of force on the streets with immigration agents, 805 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,259 the calling up of the National Guard, 806 00:37:44,259 --> 00:37:46,619 the National Guard on the streets of Washington, D.C., 807 00:37:46,619 --> 00:37:48,277 the masked agents. 808 00:37:48,277 --> 00:37:51,277 It is, I think, an effort to instill fear 809 00:37:51,277 --> 00:37:54,039 because when we're afraid, we keep our heads down. 810 00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:57,318 It has a chilling effect on discourse 811 00:37:57,318 --> 00:37:59,639 because people don't want to be arrested. 812 00:37:59,639 --> 00:38:02,039 They don't want to be punished. 813 00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:03,458 They don't want to be beaten on the streets. 814 00:38:03,458 --> 00:38:05,659 They don't want to be shot like Rene Good and Alex Pretty. 815 00:38:05,659 --> 00:38:10,659 And so instilling fear is a way of controlling a population. 816 00:38:10,659 --> 00:38:13,465 I think we have not only an ability but a 817 00:38:13,465 --> 00:38:15,219 duty to respond to that. 818 00:38:15,219 --> 00:38:19,179 I was talking earlier with some of the members here 819 00:38:19,179 --> 00:38:23,458 about how peaceful protest is incredibly valuable, 820 00:38:23,458 --> 00:38:25,539 but you have to be very careful not to cross the line 821 00:38:25,539 --> 00:38:27,378 because they will jump if you do. 822 00:38:27,378 --> 00:38:31,239 You cannot in any way obstruct a federal officer 823 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,719 who is working in their duties. 824 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,159 Like you can't get in their way, you can't stop their car, 825 00:38:35,159 --> 00:38:37,818 you can't do any of that, you will be arrested. 826 00:38:37,818 --> 00:38:40,199 You can't throw stuff, you can't damage property, 827 00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:41,918 you can't hurt people. 828 00:38:41,918 --> 00:38:42,818 But you don't need to. 829 00:38:42,818 --> 00:38:44,219 You just need to be out there speaking. 830 00:38:45,398 --> 00:38:48,179 You may be arrested anyway, and we've seen that 831 00:38:48,179 --> 00:38:49,380 in some instances. 832 00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:54,297 But I think this show of force is an effort to silence people. 833 00:38:54,297 --> 00:38:58,099 And when you're silenced, you can act with impunity. 834 00:38:58,099 --> 00:39:00,027 And I think that's the goal, to have a chilling 835 00:39:00,027 --> 00:39:00,840 effect on all of us. 836 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,141 I'm going to go script just a little bit because this is one 837 00:39:03,141 --> 00:39:05,248 of the questions that I had, and I have a few more, but I 838 00:39:05,248 --> 00:39:07,599 want to give the audience an opportunity to ask questions. 839 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:11,974 But I want to shift over to these women that have 840 00:39:11,974 --> 00:39:17,585 challenged Trump, whether we're talking about Liz Cheney, 841 00:39:17,585 --> 00:39:22,971 Elizabeth Warren, I'm thinking of Kara Swisher, Caitlin 842 00:39:22,971 --> 00:39:25,438 Collins, Molly Jong Fast. 843 00:39:25,438 --> 00:39:27,610 I mean, there's a lot of these writers, and I listen 844 00:39:27,610 --> 00:39:29,916 to your podcast, by the way, a lot of these women 845 00:39:29,916 --> 00:39:32,500 that challenge, and what is this thing with, 846 00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:36,420 how are the women's voices different than the men's? 847 00:39:37,438 --> 00:39:40,139 I hear a difference, but I want to know what your thoughts were, 848 00:39:40,139 --> 00:39:41,780 because you know a lot of these people. 849 00:39:41,780 --> 00:39:44,409 One of the voices that I think has been so powerful 850 00:39:44,409 --> 00:39:45,050 is that of E. 851 00:39:45,050 --> 00:39:45,818 Jean Carroll. 852 00:39:45,818 --> 00:39:46,920 I mean, she had some guts. 853 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,659 It takes a lot of guts to take on somebody like this, 854 00:39:49,659 --> 00:39:52,347 because not only are you putting yourself in the 855 00:39:52,347 --> 00:39:55,052 public eye and risking loss, I mean, any time you bring 856 00:39:55,052 --> 00:39:57,079 a lawsuit, there's always a risk that you lose, 857 00:39:57,079 --> 00:39:59,099 even if you believe it's a righteous cause, 858 00:39:59,099 --> 00:40:00,940 that a jury doesn't see the case your way, 859 00:40:00,940 --> 00:40:03,860 or the judge dismisses the case or whatever. 860 00:40:03,860 --> 00:40:08,179 So there's litigation risk, but there is also the very real, 861 00:40:09,878 --> 00:40:12,610 it's not just a risk, reality, that you will get 862 00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:14,079 threats, death threats. 863 00:40:14,079 --> 00:40:16,599 You will get people who want to hurt you because 864 00:40:16,599 --> 00:40:18,018 they see you as some enemy. 865 00:40:18,018 --> 00:40:21,320 And she won defamation suits twice. 866 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,960 She's still trying to collect, working her case 867 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,777 up to the Supreme Court. 868 00:40:26,777 --> 00:40:31,284 But I think that President Trump has an especially 869 00:40:31,284 --> 00:40:35,467 strong disdain for everybody who opposes him, 870 00:40:35,467 --> 00:40:37,719 but particularly women. 871 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,853 I mean, think about the way he treats some of 872 00:40:39,853 --> 00:40:41,039 these women reporters. 873 00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:42,398 Quiet piggy? 874 00:40:42,398 --> 00:40:47,541 Remember that quiet piggy it is an effort to insult and demean 875 00:40:47,541 --> 00:40:51,612 and degrade usually on the basis of looks remember 876 00:40:51,612 --> 00:40:55,318 when E. Jean Carroll sued him for um a defamation 877 00:40:55,318 --> 00:40:59,036 after he denied that he had sexually assaulted her you 878 00:40:59,036 --> 00:41:02,797 know it's things like she's not my type she's not a 10 you know 879 00:41:02,797 --> 00:41:04,597 all these kinds of things. 880 00:41:04,597 --> 00:41:08,438 It's all about appearances and looks and how you fit some 881 00:41:08,438 --> 00:41:13,835 traditional stereotype of what a woman is supposed to look like 882 00:41:13,835 --> 00:41:19,148 as a, you know, sexual object, as opposed to seeing you as an 883 00:41:19,148 --> 00:41:24,918 equal human capable of reason and thought and perspective. 884 00:41:24,918 --> 00:41:27,858 I mean, he's gone after Liz Cheney. 885 00:41:27,858 --> 00:41:31,318 Hillary Clinton, of course, is one of his favorite enemies. 886 00:41:31,318 --> 00:41:35,039 But what do you see with regard to his attacks on women? 887 00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:37,179 Well, going back to 16 and all the other issues, 888 00:41:37,179 --> 00:41:40,998 but I think for me, watching the attacks and the misogyny 889 00:41:40,998 --> 00:41:46,378 and the way it's been normalized when we watch the interviews, 890 00:41:46,378 --> 00:41:49,277 even with Pete Hegseth and his war department, 891 00:41:49,277 --> 00:41:51,599 and someone helped me, I can't remember now, 892 00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:53,199 I should because I read her book. 893 00:41:53,199 --> 00:41:55,139 Who is the young woman that went to Liz Cheney 894 00:41:55,139 --> 00:41:57,539 who used to work in the White House who turned on Trump? 895 00:41:57,539 --> 00:41:59,318 Oh, Cassidy. 896 00:42:01,297 --> 00:42:02,119 Cassidy Hutchinson. 897 00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:04,878 If you ever get a chance to do the audio or read her book, 898 00:42:04,878 --> 00:42:05,797 and it gives... 899 00:42:05,797 --> 00:42:07,079 After you read mine, of course. 900 00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:07,358 After you read hers. 901 00:42:08,978 --> 00:42:12,498 But after you read that and the podcast and Attack Within, 902 00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:17,360 I had read Liz Cheney's book and her book back to back 903 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,956 like three or four years ago, and it just really jolted me, 904 00:42:20,956 --> 00:42:24,489 being a mother of two daughters, very strong-willed daughters, 905 00:42:24,489 --> 00:42:27,059 and now I'm a grandmother to a daughter, a grandson and a 906 00:42:27,059 --> 00:42:31,369 granddaughter, is the misogyny, the throughput 907 00:42:31,369 --> 00:42:36,099 line that it's still okay in 2026, in the 21st century, 908 00:42:36,099 --> 00:42:38,824 to value women, but not just to value or have this 909 00:42:38,824 --> 00:42:41,480 idea, but to actually say it on TV in front of God 910 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,585 and everybody, and there's a bunch of people out 911 00:42:43,585 --> 00:42:45,480 there shaking their head like this is okay. 912 00:42:46,858 --> 00:42:50,690 I mean, that's what I see, and I see it in Seattle too, so, 913 00:42:50,690 --> 00:42:54,251 but not at the level, obviously, God forbid in the city, 914 00:42:54,251 --> 00:42:57,016 but I'm thinking, because you're out there, you 915 00:42:57,016 --> 00:42:59,882 know, you're out there, Joyce Vance is out there, and 916 00:42:59,882 --> 00:43:02,353 who's the other one who did the Watergate stuff? 917 00:43:02,353 --> 00:43:03,219 Jill Winebanks. 918 00:43:03,219 --> 00:43:04,559 Jill Wine-Banks. 919 00:43:04,559 --> 00:43:07,106 Tell me about that being, because you're kind of 920 00:43:07,106 --> 00:43:08,059 a frontliner out there. 921 00:43:08,059 --> 00:43:11,239 Yeah, and our other sister is Kimberly Atkins Stohr. 922 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:12,059 Yes, she's great. 923 00:43:12,059 --> 00:43:13,659 So not only do we get it as women, 924 00:43:13,659 --> 00:43:16,659 she gets it doubly as a woman of color 925 00:43:16,659 --> 00:43:21,119 because there's also misogyny and there's misogynoir, 926 00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:27,760 which is a double dose of hatred for women of color. 927 00:43:28,918 --> 00:43:29,878 I get death threats. 928 00:43:29,878 --> 00:43:32,159 I get hateful emails. 929 00:43:32,159 --> 00:43:36,478 My email is on the law school's public-facing website, 930 00:43:36,478 --> 00:43:37,898 so it's easy to find me. 931 00:43:37,898 --> 00:43:42,539 But it is amazing how you just say something. 932 00:43:42,539 --> 00:43:46,438 You know, Donald Trump was convicted of 34 felonies, right? 933 00:43:46,438 --> 00:43:48,219 Some objective fact. 934 00:43:48,219 --> 00:43:50,699 You left-wing lunatic. 935 00:43:50,699 --> 00:43:53,039 You know, blue language, blue language, blue language. 936 00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:54,239 It's amazing. 937 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,563 and I think some of that is the normalization 938 00:43:58,563 --> 00:44:01,018 of, as you say, misogyny, 939 00:44:03,659 --> 00:44:09,900 xenophobia, homophobia, all of these things. 940 00:44:11,978 --> 00:44:14,179 We had reached a point in society where I thought 941 00:44:15,498 --> 00:44:17,978 we were making a great deal of progress on these things, 942 00:44:17,978 --> 00:44:20,646 and I think we have, but as I said, it feels like 943 00:44:20,646 --> 00:44:22,119 we've regressed so much. 944 00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:24,449 And I think some of it is by verbalizing these 945 00:44:24,449 --> 00:44:27,809 things and saying out loud, it gives license to others 946 00:44:27,809 --> 00:44:29,458 to say similar things. 947 00:44:30,938 --> 00:44:33,849 And there are also these influencers on social 948 00:44:33,849 --> 00:44:36,190 media who, you know, I imagine they get paid, 949 00:44:36,190 --> 00:44:38,119 but now there's all these women with, like, 950 00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:40,733 Turning Point USA who are starting to normalize 951 00:44:40,733 --> 00:44:42,791 the idea that women that women should not 952 00:44:42,791 --> 00:44:45,036 have the right to vote, that there should be 953 00:44:45,036 --> 00:44:48,202 one vote per household, and only the husband should 954 00:44:48,202 --> 00:44:49,599 be permitted to vote. 955 00:44:49,599 --> 00:44:52,219 I mean, this is lunacy. 956 00:44:52,219 --> 00:44:55,139 But the more you say it out loud, 957 00:44:55,139 --> 00:44:57,259 the more normal it becomes. 958 00:44:57,259 --> 00:44:59,918 You know, think about your own crowd. 959 00:44:59,918 --> 00:45:02,699 You know, people dress alike, people talk alike. 960 00:45:02,699 --> 00:45:04,400 We're all chameleons. 961 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,159 We tend to conform to the people we see 962 00:45:07,159 --> 00:45:09,079 and the way we talk. 963 00:45:09,079 --> 00:45:12,657 And I think the more, you know, just saying these things 964 00:45:12,657 --> 00:45:15,998 over and over and over again does normalize it. 965 00:45:15,998 --> 00:45:17,760 And so I think we need to use our voices 966 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,702 to speak out against it and talk about just 967 00:45:20,702 --> 00:45:23,041 how outrageous it is to think about 968 00:45:23,041 --> 00:45:25,525 the idea of, like, taking away the right 969 00:45:25,525 --> 00:45:26,777 for women to vote. 970 00:45:26,777 --> 00:45:29,179 Well, and also the right to choose for our bodies. 971 00:45:30,398 --> 00:45:32,396 I mean, that's another thing where there's been 972 00:45:32,396 --> 00:45:33,478 this huge movement. 973 00:45:33,478 --> 00:45:39,023 I mean, think about in the 1970s, the Republican Party 974 00:45:39,023 --> 00:45:44,320 was in favor of the ERA, favored conservation, as we 975 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:49,864 called it then, cared about the environment and Earth 976 00:45:49,864 --> 00:45:52,697 Day and all of these things. 977 00:45:52,699 --> 00:45:54,559 And it wasn't until 978 00:45:55,818 --> 00:45:58,889 they kind of got the memo that this wasn't going to be 979 00:45:58,889 --> 00:46:02,039 part of the party platform that things started to change 980 00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:04,789 and the talking points the idea that climate 981 00:46:04,789 --> 00:46:07,219 change is a hoax I mean come on 982 00:46:07,219 --> 00:46:12,036 it's just objectively wrong and yet people continue 983 00:46:12,036 --> 00:46:15,679 to spout these lies because it has become normalized 984 00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:19,034 in certain parts of the culture And so I think all of us have 985 00:46:19,034 --> 00:46:22,679 an obligation to speak out when we hear those kinds of lies. 986 00:46:22,679 --> 00:46:25,239 Well, also, before I move on to this next question, 987 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,619 and this is for your next book when you come out, 988 00:46:27,619 --> 00:46:31,199 is we've seen, and I've seen, and I'm 65. 989 00:46:31,199 --> 00:46:33,699 Well, I just told everyone my age, and I'll have to lie again. 990 00:46:36,259 --> 00:46:40,159 We have seen that, when you were talking, that 991 00:46:40,159 --> 00:46:44,418 anything that's feminine, that's female power, 992 00:46:44,418 --> 00:46:47,559 that's centered in women in our power 993 00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:51,922 to have children, to be mothers, to be grandmothers, 994 00:46:51,922 --> 00:46:54,739 to carry wisdom, that that's weak and bad. 995 00:46:55,918 --> 00:46:59,438 Anything that makes you a bro and greedy 996 00:46:59,438 --> 00:47:01,858 and a billionaire makes you a man, 997 00:47:01,858 --> 00:47:03,679 and that's power. 998 00:47:03,679 --> 00:47:06,000 I have never seen this shift so markedly 999 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,159 than I have in the last decade, quite frankly. 1000 00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:12,059 and that, I'll come back to that in a moment, because I have a 1001 00:47:12,059 --> 00:47:15,043 question on that, but let me, let me go back to a question 1002 00:47:15,043 --> 00:47:18,599 I have teed up here regarding your book, and I'll have to say, 1003 00:47:18,599 --> 00:47:22,061 part three of her book is very lawyerly, and I got into it 1004 00:47:22,061 --> 00:47:26,262 deep, too deep, it was too much, yeah, I'm the highlighter 1005 00:47:26,262 --> 00:47:28,525 tabbing type of person, so you, your, part three 1006 00:47:28,525 --> 00:47:30,726 of your book is titled, how do we take it back? 1007 00:47:30,726 --> 00:47:32,670 And your book says that, you know, you 1008 00:47:32,670 --> 00:47:36,572 offer and remind us of all these tools that we have, the law, and 1009 00:47:36,572 --> 00:47:40,860 to name a few, the guardrails, if you will, the litigation, 1010 00:47:40,860 --> 00:47:43,699 revamping Department of Justice and Ethics, local 1011 00:47:43,699 --> 00:47:46,539 and state power, finance laws, voting, education, 1012 00:47:46,539 --> 00:47:50,329 you have just phenomenal, just examples that are phenomenal 1013 00:47:50,329 --> 00:47:52,039 just to go through and read. 1014 00:47:52,039 --> 00:47:56,251 So my question to you is, being where you sit as a former 1015 00:47:56,251 --> 00:48:00,742 U.S. attorney, a law professor, and whether you like it or 1016 00:48:00,742 --> 00:48:05,516 not, an influencer and a great podcaster, do you think that we 1017 00:48:05,516 --> 00:48:09,914 right now in 2026, do we have the political courage, do we 1018 00:48:09,914 --> 00:48:14,780 have the political maturity to face this moment and change it? 1019 00:48:15,958 --> 00:48:18,358 It's a very good question, and I don't know. 1020 00:48:18,358 --> 00:48:22,056 You know, there are times when I think that not enough 1021 00:48:22,056 --> 00:48:24,159 people are paying attention. 1022 00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:28,916 I think there are those who think they like what they see 1023 00:48:28,916 --> 00:48:30,838 from the Trump administration. 1024 00:48:30,838 --> 00:48:34,219 I think there are some like us who are horrified. 1025 00:48:34,219 --> 00:48:37,114 And I worry about that group in the middle, because I think 1026 00:48:37,114 --> 00:48:39,539 the super magas are never going to come along. 1027 00:48:39,539 --> 00:48:42,217 I think there is a strong number of people who are 1028 00:48:42,217 --> 00:48:43,759 horrified by what they see. 1029 00:48:43,759 --> 00:48:46,802 But I worry about that middle group who kind 1030 00:48:46,802 --> 00:48:48,239 of likes their 401K. 1031 00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,378 They don't love everything about Donald Trump. 1032 00:48:50,378 --> 00:48:52,659 They think he's kind of mean. 1033 00:48:52,659 --> 00:48:55,788 You know, they don't love the UFC fighting on the White 1034 00:48:55,788 --> 00:48:58,960 House lawn and all that, but they're willing to 1035 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,715 tolerate it because they like their comfort and 1036 00:49:02,715 --> 00:49:04,777 their comfort creatures. 1037 00:49:04,777 --> 00:49:08,864 And so I think the way we have to bring them along is by 1038 00:49:08,864 --> 00:49:11,239 showing them what's at stake. 1039 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,876 And, you know, I think we can point to some other cultures 1040 00:49:13,876 --> 00:49:15,277 to talk about what's at stake. 1041 00:49:16,599 --> 00:49:19,989 Until recently, Hungary was moving in this very dangerous 1042 00:49:19,989 --> 00:49:23,666 direction. They've had a course correction, and I think there's 1043 00:49:23,666 --> 00:49:24,804 some lessons there. 1044 00:49:24,804 --> 00:49:26,878 But in Russia, which is really where I 1045 00:49:26,878 --> 00:49:30,708 think we could be headed, we see a country where people have 1046 00:49:30,708 --> 00:49:34,748 just disengaged from politics, because they view politics 1047 00:49:34,748 --> 00:49:38,021 the way we might view professional wrestling, 1048 00:49:38,021 --> 00:49:41,693 right? It's all a little show, and you know, some people 1049 00:49:41,693 --> 00:49:45,679 actually go out and vote, that's adorable, but we know it's all 1050 00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:48,505 fixed, it's all rigged, and in the end, Putin's 1051 00:49:48,505 --> 00:49:49,664 going to win again. 1052 00:49:49,664 --> 00:49:51,259 And so maybe we're a little 1053 00:49:51,259 --> 00:49:53,916 bit entertained by this little political show, 1054 00:49:53,916 --> 00:49:56,106 but in the end, we can't change it at all. 1055 00:49:56,106 --> 00:49:59,068 And so all we worry about is our families 1056 00:49:59,068 --> 00:50:04,217 and our jobs, because that's the only thing that we can control. 1057 00:50:04,219 --> 00:50:05,697 That is no way to live. 1058 00:50:05,697 --> 00:50:08,081 That is not the kind of freedom that 1059 00:50:08,081 --> 00:50:08,820 we've had. 1060 00:50:08,820 --> 00:50:11,860 And maybe in this 250th year, when people are 1061 00:50:11,860 --> 00:50:15,887 spending more time thinking about the founding documents 1062 00:50:15,887 --> 00:50:19,831 and why we're here, it's all about liberty and the freedom 1063 00:50:19,831 --> 00:50:23,199 for each of us to choose how we want to live, right? 1064 00:50:23,199 --> 00:50:25,728 Who we want to love, where we want to live, 1065 00:50:25,728 --> 00:50:28,777 what we want to do for a living, how we exercise our 1066 00:50:28,777 --> 00:50:30,911 right to vote, what we want to say, what we want 1067 00:50:30,911 --> 00:50:33,099 to do, how we want to worship, or whether we want 1068 00:50:33,099 --> 00:50:34,045 to worship. 1069 00:50:34,045 --> 00:50:36,791 Those are all the liberties that we 1070 00:50:36,791 --> 00:50:40,577 came here for, and maybe this 250th anniversary 1071 00:50:40,579 --> 00:50:44,518 will remind all of us what it's all about. 1072 00:50:44,518 --> 00:50:47,958 It's not about getting a better return on your 401K. 1073 00:50:47,958 --> 00:50:50,485 It's about making sure that we and our kids 1074 00:50:50,485 --> 00:50:53,289 and our grandchildren get to live that 1075 00:50:53,289 --> 00:50:54,938 dream of America. 1076 00:50:54,938 --> 00:50:56,739 So let me bring you back to something that... 1077 00:50:56,739 --> 00:50:57,885 Let's clap. 1078 00:50:57,885 --> 00:50:58,918 Thank you. 1079 00:51:00,938 --> 00:51:03,378 So when I brought up political maturity, 1080 00:51:03,378 --> 00:51:06,239 and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, 1081 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:07,958 from having, I have millennial daughters. 1082 00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,338 When I talk about political maturity, 1083 00:51:13,338 --> 00:51:16,719 and you just said something very right on point 1084 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,849 about the middle there, is it Gen Z that's 1085 00:51:19,849 --> 00:51:21,039 going to save us? 1086 00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:21,759 Is it Gen Z? 1087 00:51:22,858 --> 00:51:24,898 Who was that young kid that was on CNN? 1088 00:51:24,898 --> 00:51:27,139 His last name is Mockler, and he told Jenny, 1089 00:51:27,139 --> 00:51:29,621 he told him, get your effing 1090 00:51:29,621 --> 00:51:31,119 finger out of my face. 1091 00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:32,818 I know, usually I don't get this snarky, 1092 00:51:32,818 --> 00:51:34,579 but I actually enjoyed that moment a lot. 1093 00:51:35,659 --> 00:51:37,998 Is it Gen Z that's going to step up and say, 1094 00:51:37,998 --> 00:51:41,539 listen, Xers, boomers, millennials, 1095 00:51:41,539 --> 00:51:43,239 we're tired of this crap. 1096 00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:44,918 We don't got nothing to lose. 1097 00:51:44,918 --> 00:51:45,777 We don't got a house. 1098 00:51:45,777 --> 00:51:47,599 We don't got a 401k. 1099 00:51:47,599 --> 00:51:48,438 We're going to vote. 1100 00:51:48,438 --> 00:51:49,418 We're young. 1101 00:51:49,418 --> 00:51:53,018 And what do we do as, I see myself as an elder now, 1102 00:51:53,018 --> 00:51:56,659 and what do we do to not, I hate using the word empower, 1103 00:51:56,659 --> 00:51:59,179 but is it Gen Z that's going to do it, 1104 00:51:59,179 --> 00:52:01,199 and how do we help them? 1105 00:52:01,199 --> 00:52:03,498 Yeah, you know, they like to say, okay, boomer. 1106 00:52:03,498 --> 00:52:04,139 I know. 1107 00:52:04,139 --> 00:52:06,699 I kind of like that, though. 1108 00:52:06,699 --> 00:52:12,099 I don't think we have the luxury of waiting for any one group 1109 00:52:12,099 --> 00:52:13,918 or individual to save us. 1110 00:52:13,918 --> 00:52:15,699 I think it's got to start with each of us. 1111 00:52:15,699 --> 00:52:18,378 We all have to feel some responsibility to save us. 1112 00:52:18,378 --> 00:52:21,159 I'd like to think of all of us as having a responsibility 1113 00:52:21,159 --> 00:52:24,804 to be ambassadors for democracy and thinking about what 1114 00:52:24,804 --> 00:52:26,338 we can do ourselves. 1115 00:52:26,338 --> 00:52:29,119 But I do think that there's a reason 1116 00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:31,438 that candidates who are promoting affordability 1117 00:52:32,458 --> 00:52:34,518 are doing well. 1118 00:52:34,518 --> 00:52:36,918 You know, whether you call yourself a socialist 1119 00:52:36,918 --> 00:52:39,039 or a Democrat or whatever you call yourself, 1120 00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:41,998 I think younger people are less concerned with the labels. 1121 00:52:41,998 --> 00:52:44,099 I think people over a certain age freak out 1122 00:52:44,099 --> 00:52:45,737 when they hear the word socialist, 1123 00:52:45,739 --> 00:52:48,918 and I think young people don't blink an eye. 1124 00:52:48,918 --> 00:52:52,478 What they care about is policies that make life affordable. 1125 00:52:52,478 --> 00:52:56,179 The average age for a first-time homebuyer 1126 00:52:56,179 --> 00:53:00,239 in the United States right now is 38 years old. 1127 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:00,938 I just read that. 1128 00:53:00,938 --> 00:53:03,139 And I think young people are seeing, 1129 00:53:03,139 --> 00:53:06,119 like, I can't afford to buy a house, 1130 00:53:06,119 --> 00:53:09,021 and I'm paying all this rent, and I'm just running 1131 00:53:09,021 --> 00:53:09,818 on a treadmill. 1132 00:53:09,818 --> 00:53:12,639 I'm not saving the money I need to buy a house. 1133 00:53:12,639 --> 00:53:15,079 I'll never be able to own my own home, 1134 00:53:15,079 --> 00:53:16,438 which, of course, is the biggest investment 1135 00:53:16,438 --> 00:53:19,139 most of us ever make, and it's a great investment. 1136 00:53:19,139 --> 00:53:21,898 And it's also good for communities 1137 00:53:21,898 --> 00:53:24,661 when people own their own homes because then we're 1138 00:53:24,661 --> 00:53:26,945 invested in communities, we get to know our neighbors, 1139 00:53:26,945 --> 00:53:29,559 we look out for our neighbors, we beautify our homes. 1140 00:53:29,559 --> 00:53:32,878 All of those things are so incredibly important. 1141 00:53:32,878 --> 00:53:37,338 And so affordability, I think, is a really important issue. 1142 00:53:37,338 --> 00:53:38,878 I know, you know, back in Bill Clinton's day, 1143 00:53:38,878 --> 00:53:40,418 they said it's the economy, stupid, 1144 00:53:40,418 --> 00:53:42,818 but I think this wealth gap is the thing. 1145 00:53:42,818 --> 00:53:46,152 It isn't so much the economy in terms of the gross national 1146 00:53:46,152 --> 00:53:47,818 product or the stock market. 1147 00:53:47,818 --> 00:53:51,639 It's about my standard of living. 1148 00:53:51,639 --> 00:53:54,898 And I think people see these billionaires, 1149 00:53:54,898 --> 00:53:56,619 and now they flaunt it. 1150 00:53:56,619 --> 00:54:00,119 We really are living in a second Gilded Age 1151 00:54:00,119 --> 00:54:02,119 with the robber barons. 1152 00:54:02,119 --> 00:54:05,838 It used to be oil and railroads, and now it's tech and dot-com 1153 00:54:05,838 --> 00:54:07,697 and all these kinds of things. 1154 00:54:07,699 --> 00:54:08,978 No offense, Seattle. 1155 00:54:10,679 --> 00:54:13,739 I know you've got your tech jobs and all that. 1156 00:54:13,739 --> 00:54:18,759 But I think that how the other half lives. 1157 00:54:18,759 --> 00:54:21,699 There's a lot of people who are hurting economically 1158 00:54:22,699 --> 00:54:25,043 because of those policies we've had since the 1159 00:54:25,043 --> 00:54:26,338 Reagan administration. 1160 00:54:26,338 --> 00:54:28,878 And so when there are politicians who say, 1161 00:54:28,878 --> 00:54:30,599 let's work on making things affordable, 1162 00:54:30,599 --> 00:54:35,259 I think it is such a clear path to victory for a politician. 1163 00:54:35,259 --> 00:54:38,498 This is what Peter Magyar did in Hungary. 1164 00:54:38,498 --> 00:54:43,503 He campaigned very hard in the areas that were 1165 00:54:43,503 --> 00:54:47,059 previously won by Viktor Orban. 1166 00:54:47,059 --> 00:54:49,518 And he talked about affordability. 1167 00:54:49,518 --> 00:54:53,398 And he talked about, aren't we tired of the fear and the hate? 1168 00:54:53,398 --> 00:54:56,197 Don't we want to be united and feel some pride 1169 00:54:56,197 --> 00:54:57,559 in our country again? 1170 00:54:57,559 --> 00:54:59,601 Why don't we come together? 1171 00:54:59,601 --> 00:55:03,152 So if we could unite progressives and populists 1172 00:55:03,152 --> 00:55:07,239 and get over these racial divisions that the president 1173 00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,324 has stoked, I mean, I think there is a great opportunity 1174 00:55:11,324 --> 00:55:14,963 for visionary leadership to come in and unite us. 1175 00:55:14,963 --> 00:55:17,362 And so that, I think, is a hopeful 1176 00:55:17,362 --> 00:55:21,356 way that all of us can try to advance toward the future. 1177 00:55:21,358 --> 00:55:23,619 So you touched on two things, but I have two 1178 00:55:23,619 --> 00:55:24,719 questions for that. 1179 00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:29,518 Income inequality and the capitalism that I grew up with, 1180 00:55:29,518 --> 00:55:32,018 probably that you grew up with, isn't the capitalism we see now. 1181 00:55:32,018 --> 00:55:35,197 I think the capitalism we see now is just basic hoarding. 1182 00:55:35,199 --> 00:55:37,438 I mean, how much money do you need, Mr. Musk? 1183 00:55:38,498 --> 00:55:41,858 Turns out $1 trillion is how much he needs. 1184 00:55:41,858 --> 00:55:43,619 How much money do you need, Mr. Bezos, 1185 00:55:44,978 --> 00:55:46,818 if your girlfriend and wife can go to the moon? 1186 00:55:48,219 --> 00:55:50,663 so let me just ask I have some questions, a few 1187 00:55:50,663 --> 00:55:52,641 left and I want to open it up to the audience 1188 00:55:52,641 --> 00:55:55,143 because I'm really interested in your 1189 00:55:55,143 --> 00:55:57,679 thoughts on this so we all 1190 00:55:57,679 --> 00:55:59,978 got to listen to and I hope you watched the 1191 00:55:59,978 --> 00:56:02,518 listening to President Obama and Michelle Obama in 1192 00:56:02,518 --> 00:56:04,318 the opening of the Presidential Center 1193 00:56:04,318 --> 00:56:05,498 applause 1194 00:56:07,318 --> 00:56:10,114 I have to admit I'm just going to be 1195 00:56:10,114 --> 00:56:11,719 really honest with you, I always tear up 1196 00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:13,438 because I'm like it used to be like this 1197 00:56:13,438 --> 00:56:15,518 but now I was trying to be positive Debra 1198 00:56:15,518 --> 00:56:20,318 Okay. So what are your thoughts about the spirit or the 1199 00:56:20,318 --> 00:56:24,385 sentiment of the president, former President Obama, when 1200 00:56:24,385 --> 00:56:27,219 he was telling us, which I thought, again, I thought, oh, 1201 00:56:27,219 --> 00:56:28,777 he's speaking to me. 1202 00:56:28,777 --> 00:56:30,612 Don't long for the past. 1203 00:56:30,612 --> 00:56:32,264 Roll up your sleeves. 1204 00:56:32,264 --> 00:56:34,099 Vision, not vengeance. 1205 00:56:35,759 --> 00:56:37,898 What are your thoughts on that? 1206 00:56:37,898 --> 00:56:41,297 I think it's about action and it's about hope 1207 00:56:41,297 --> 00:56:43,242 and that's what we need one of the goals 1208 00:56:43,242 --> 00:56:45,936 of an authoritarian is to make you feel 1209 00:56:45,936 --> 00:56:49,539 helpless and hopeless it's why President Trump 1210 00:56:49,539 --> 00:56:52,398 puts his name and his picture on everything 1211 00:56:52,398 --> 00:56:55,579 because he wants you to think he is omnipotent 1212 00:56:55,579 --> 00:56:58,619 that he is everywhere and that he cannot be defeated 1213 00:56:58,619 --> 00:57:02,951 but as President Obama has said And by the way, I think his 1214 00:57:02,951 --> 00:57:05,657 greatest speech is the one he gave at Selma, Alabama. 1215 00:57:05,659 --> 00:57:08,639 If you haven't read it lately, it is so worth a reread. 1216 00:57:08,639 --> 00:57:11,079 I happen to be there, so maybe that's why I like it so much. 1217 00:57:11,079 --> 00:57:11,539 Okay, don't brag. 1218 00:57:11,539 --> 00:57:12,556 Now you're just showing off. 1219 00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:13,699 Yeah, I am just showing off. 1220 00:57:13,699 --> 00:57:17,739 But it's a speech I've read and reread. 1221 00:57:17,739 --> 00:57:20,469 And what he talks about is what American 1222 00:57:20,469 --> 00:57:22,539 exceptionalism means to him. 1223 00:57:22,539 --> 00:57:25,465 You know, people like to think America is exceptional because, 1224 00:57:25,465 --> 00:57:27,838 like, God chose us to be the shining city on the hill. 1225 00:57:27,838 --> 00:57:30,534 and somehow he likes us better than, you know, France 1226 00:57:30,534 --> 00:57:31,759 and Ghana or something. 1227 00:57:31,759 --> 00:57:34,590 But he said, no, what makes America exceptional 1228 00:57:34,590 --> 00:57:36,077 is our ability to change. 1229 00:57:36,079 --> 00:57:39,630 And it's always been ordinary Americans who rolled up their 1230 00:57:39,630 --> 00:57:41,619 sleeves and fixed things, right? 1231 00:57:41,619 --> 00:57:44,179 The people who worked on the Underground Railroad 1232 00:57:44,179 --> 00:57:47,407 and the people who marched across the Edmund Pettus 1233 00:57:47,407 --> 00:57:50,108 Bridge in Selma, Alabama, the women who fought 1234 00:57:50,108 --> 00:57:51,219 for the right to vote. 1235 00:57:51,219 --> 00:57:54,958 I mean, all of these injustices throughout our nation's history 1236 00:57:54,958 --> 00:57:57,818 were solved with ordinary people. 1237 00:57:57,818 --> 00:58:01,639 And so I think what he speaks to is action. 1238 00:58:01,639 --> 00:58:04,378 We can't just sit around waiting for someone else to do it. 1239 00:58:04,378 --> 00:58:04,918 And hope. 1240 00:58:04,918 --> 00:58:07,079 We have to believe that we can succeed. 1241 00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:11,338 And so I took a lot of, you know, it was nostalgic, 1242 00:58:11,338 --> 00:58:14,239 but I agree with him that we can't look past, you know, 1243 00:58:14,239 --> 00:58:16,679 history tells us that when there's been a disruptor, 1244 00:58:16,679 --> 00:58:18,297 we don't go back to what we were. 1245 00:58:18,297 --> 00:58:19,679 We have something that's new. 1246 00:58:19,679 --> 00:58:21,018 And I think that's exciting. 1247 00:58:21,018 --> 00:58:22,099 What does our future look like? 1248 00:58:22,099 --> 00:58:24,539 We have the ability to shape that and to build that. 1249 00:58:24,539 --> 00:58:27,047 And I think that we can use this dark time in 1250 00:58:27,047 --> 00:58:29,559 our nation's history as a lesson to come 1251 00:58:29,559 --> 00:58:33,139 together, united, and solve some of these problems. 1252 00:58:33,139 --> 00:58:34,898 We know what the path needs to look like. 1253 00:58:34,898 --> 00:58:36,878 We just need to get out there and do it. 1254 00:58:36,878 --> 00:58:44,556 So one of the things, just a little bit, 1255 00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:45,918 and then I'm going to move on to another topic, 1256 00:58:45,918 --> 00:58:49,775 but President Obama also said that what America 1257 00:58:49,775 --> 00:58:51,898 does best is look forward. 1258 00:58:51,898 --> 00:58:55,177 And do you agree with that, that what America does? 1259 00:58:55,179 --> 00:58:57,398 It doesn't mean we forget the past, 1260 00:58:57,398 --> 00:59:01,577 but one of the things that we do best is look forward. 1261 00:59:01,579 --> 00:59:02,579 Do you agree with that? 1262 00:59:02,579 --> 00:59:03,858 And what are your thoughts on that? 1263 00:59:03,858 --> 00:59:06,512 You kind of answered that to some degree, what 1264 00:59:06,512 --> 00:59:07,978 you were saying just now. 1265 00:59:07,978 --> 00:59:09,639 Yeah, you know, I don't know. 1266 00:59:09,639 --> 00:59:11,119 I think there are times when we have. 1267 00:59:11,119 --> 00:59:13,478 There are times when we're not so great. 1268 00:59:13,478 --> 00:59:17,170 But I do think that one of the things we have the ability 1269 00:59:17,170 --> 00:59:20,094 to do is to shape our future, which is what he talked 1270 00:59:20,094 --> 00:59:22,219 about in that other speech that I talked about. 1271 00:59:22,219 --> 00:59:24,994 And I want to just remind everybody about all the 1272 00:59:24,994 --> 00:59:26,657 things that we can do, right? 1273 00:59:26,659 --> 00:59:28,853 Not only can we vote, but we can encourage our 1274 00:59:28,853 --> 00:59:30,217 friends and others to vote. 1275 00:59:30,219 --> 00:59:34,478 Young people still vote in dismally low percentages. 1276 00:59:34,478 --> 00:59:37,391 So if you've got young people in your lives, encourage them 1277 00:59:37,391 --> 00:59:39,646 to get out there and register and vote. 1278 00:59:39,646 --> 00:59:42,646 We can do a lot of important things. 1279 00:59:42,646 --> 00:59:45,851 Protesting is incredibly valuable. 1280 00:59:45,851 --> 00:59:48,514 If you've participated in any of 1281 00:59:48,514 --> 00:59:52,184 these No Kings protests or others, they work. 1282 00:59:52,184 --> 00:59:53,728 They are valuable. 1283 00:59:53,728 --> 00:59:56,286 Minnesota shows us what it works. 1284 00:59:56,286 --> 00:59:59,126 But in the book, I talk about political 1285 00:59:59,126 --> 01:00:03,472 scientist Erica Chenoweth, who is at Harvard, and she has 1286 01:00:03,472 --> 01:00:08,179 studied regime change around the world and concludes that if 1287 01:00:08,179 --> 01:00:12,219 even only 3.5 percent of the population engages in 1288 01:00:12,219 --> 01:00:16,259 peaceful protest, they can effect regime change. 1289 01:00:16,259 --> 01:00:19,121 And part of the reason is the protesters themselves are 1290 01:00:19,121 --> 01:00:21,867 out there inspiring each other and empowering each other. 1291 01:00:21,867 --> 01:00:23,193 But there are other people, like 1292 01:00:23,193 --> 01:00:25,811 that group we talked about who's not paying attention, 1293 01:00:25,811 --> 01:00:26,559 they see you. 1294 01:00:26,559 --> 01:00:27,659 They see you on television. 1295 01:00:27,659 --> 01:00:29,838 They see you on social media and the internet. 1296 01:00:29,838 --> 01:00:33,398 And they realize, wow, there is a big group of people 1297 01:00:33,398 --> 01:00:35,737 who think something is amiss in our country. 1298 01:00:35,739 --> 01:00:37,759 Maybe I should wake up and pay attention. 1299 01:00:37,759 --> 01:00:39,438 So that's really powerful. 1300 01:00:39,438 --> 01:00:41,418 And then, of course, if you don't know where 1301 01:00:41,418 --> 01:00:43,342 to begin or plug in, there are all kinds 1302 01:00:43,342 --> 01:00:45,759 of great organizations around this country 1303 01:00:45,759 --> 01:00:48,277 where you can join and do discrete tasks. 1304 01:00:48,277 --> 01:00:50,599 Like the League of Women Voters, great organization 1305 01:00:50,599 --> 01:00:53,358 that provides information to voters 1306 01:00:53,358 --> 01:00:56,239 in a time when there's so much disinformation 1307 01:00:56,239 --> 01:00:58,818 that you can add a lot of value there. 1308 01:00:58,818 --> 01:01:00,259 Indivisible chapters. 1309 01:01:00,259 --> 01:01:04,219 These are great grassroots organizations 1310 01:01:04,219 --> 01:01:05,998 that are building democracy. 1311 01:01:05,998 --> 01:01:09,739 And we've got local political party groups 1312 01:01:09,739 --> 01:01:12,458 through congressional districts or county parties. 1313 01:01:12,458 --> 01:01:15,797 Lots of places where we can plug in and get to work 1314 01:01:15,797 --> 01:01:17,139 if that's something you want to do. 1315 01:01:17,139 --> 01:01:20,358 One thing I've done is just driving people to the polls. 1316 01:01:20,358 --> 01:01:21,878 That is incredibly valuable. 1317 01:01:21,878 --> 01:01:24,559 A senior citizen who can no longer drive but wants to 1318 01:01:24,559 --> 01:01:27,235 exercise their right to vote, there's nothing more rewarding 1319 01:01:27,235 --> 01:01:29,179 than spending Election Day driving people to the polls. 1320 01:01:29,179 --> 01:01:31,922 So I hope all of you will find in your own way some 1321 01:01:31,922 --> 01:01:34,599 way to get involved to be part of the solution. 1322 01:01:34,599 --> 01:01:37,088 Well, I got a couple follow-up questions, and I think we're 1323 01:01:37,088 --> 01:01:39,481 going to go into the audience, but these are a little 1324 01:01:39,481 --> 01:01:40,478 bit more personal. 1325 01:01:40,478 --> 01:01:43,545 So you end in your book with the powers of, again, 1326 01:01:43,545 --> 01:01:46,905 we shared this earlier, you just rattled off a bunch 1327 01:01:46,905 --> 01:01:50,478 of more tools that we have and guardrails that we have, 1328 01:01:50,478 --> 01:01:52,922 the powers of litigation and organizing and 1329 01:01:52,922 --> 01:01:55,597 education and voting, and you talk about how 1330 01:01:55,597 --> 01:01:56,938 hope looks forward. 1331 01:01:56,938 --> 01:02:00,233 So my question to you is, is courage more contagious 1332 01:02:00,233 --> 01:02:01,458 than fear, and why? 1333 01:02:03,179 --> 01:02:07,599 I think they're both contagious, courage and fear. 1334 01:02:07,599 --> 01:02:12,599 And so people look to each other to see how should 1335 01:02:12,599 --> 01:02:15,099 we react in this moment. 1336 01:02:15,099 --> 01:02:17,135 You know, if you've ever been in a building like 1337 01:02:17,135 --> 01:02:19,463 when the power goes out, the first thing people do is 1338 01:02:19,463 --> 01:02:20,918 they kind of look at each other. 1339 01:02:20,918 --> 01:02:23,018 They don't do anything until like, should we be scared? 1340 01:02:23,018 --> 01:02:23,797 Should we be freaked out? 1341 01:02:23,797 --> 01:02:24,358 Is this okay? 1342 01:02:24,358 --> 01:02:25,498 Is it coming back on in a minute? 1343 01:02:25,498 --> 01:02:26,777 Are we okay here? 1344 01:02:26,777 --> 01:02:29,967 And so you can lead by example and people will 1345 01:02:29,967 --> 01:02:31,777 follow your lead, right? 1346 01:02:31,777 --> 01:02:33,599 As I said, we're all chameleons. 1347 01:02:33,599 --> 01:02:35,579 If you show courage, others will follow. 1348 01:02:35,579 --> 01:02:36,918 Courage is contagious. 1349 01:02:36,918 --> 01:02:38,219 But so is fear. 1350 01:02:38,219 --> 01:02:40,719 And as we said, fear is the tool of the tyrant. 1351 01:02:40,719 --> 01:02:44,679 The response and the antidote to fear is courage. 1352 01:02:44,679 --> 01:02:47,425 And so if we can stand up in our own way, whether it's 1353 01:02:47,425 --> 01:02:50,418 participating in protests or or just working on one of 1354 01:02:50,418 --> 01:02:52,117 these pro-democracy things. 1355 01:02:52,119 --> 01:02:55,099 I think just even having courageous conversations 1356 01:02:55,099 --> 01:02:57,478 with people in our own sphere. 1357 01:02:57,478 --> 01:02:59,418 Research says that we are most influenced 1358 01:02:59,418 --> 01:03:02,585 by the people around us, our friends, our 1359 01:03:02,585 --> 01:03:04,199 families, our loved ones. 1360 01:03:04,199 --> 01:03:07,518 And so you may have the crazy uncle who's MAGA forever. 1361 01:03:07,518 --> 01:03:08,217 Don't worry about him. 1362 01:03:08,217 --> 01:03:09,099 You don't have to talk to him. 1363 01:03:10,219 --> 01:03:13,099 But you may also have friends or family 1364 01:03:13,099 --> 01:03:15,438 who are these people who are not really paying attention. 1365 01:03:15,438 --> 01:03:16,998 They don't think it's a big deal. 1366 01:03:16,998 --> 01:03:20,358 They think all these talks about authoritarianism are overblown. 1367 01:03:20,358 --> 01:03:24,188 They roll their eyes, you know, when you talk about some of the 1368 01:03:24,188 --> 01:03:26,318 problems that are happening. 1369 01:03:26,318 --> 01:03:29,878 We have an obligation, I think, to share with them our views 1370 01:03:29,878 --> 01:03:32,139 and the evidence that we have about these things, 1371 01:03:32,139 --> 01:03:35,858 because if they trust you and respect you, 1372 01:03:35,858 --> 01:03:39,059 it may plant a seed that will cause them to rethink 1373 01:03:39,059 --> 01:03:41,318 what's happening in our country, too. 1374 01:03:41,318 --> 01:03:44,210 So this is my last question and it's very personal 1375 01:03:44,210 --> 01:03:44,563 to me. 1376 01:03:44,563 --> 01:03:46,516 You and I had a little chat about it before 1377 01:03:46,516 --> 01:03:48,458 we came out here and I was so happy to see this at 1378 01:03:48,458 --> 01:03:49,931 the end of your book. 1379 01:03:49,931 --> 01:03:52,012 You end with an amazing quote 1380 01:03:52,012 --> 01:03:55,969 from one of my lifelong heroes since I was 12 1381 01:03:55,969 --> 01:04:01,132 years old, Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm. 1382 01:04:01,132 --> 01:04:03,655 I'm gonna to read the quote, then 1383 01:04:03,655 --> 01:04:06,300 I'm going to tell you a quick little story. 1384 01:04:06,300 --> 01:04:09,244 Shirley Chisholm, my hero, said, you don't make 1385 01:04:09,244 --> 01:04:12,297 progress by standing on the sidelines, whimpering 1386 01:04:12,297 --> 01:04:13,362 and complaining. 1387 01:04:13,362 --> 01:04:15,396 You make progress by implementing 1388 01:04:15,396 --> 01:04:18,121 ideas. And I was sharing with Barbara before we 1389 01:04:18,121 --> 01:04:21,161 came out here that Shirley Chisholm, I had a poster, I 1390 01:04:21,161 --> 01:04:24,579 have one of her original posters in 1972 when she was running 1391 01:04:24,579 --> 01:04:25,431 for president. 1392 01:04:25,431 --> 01:04:26,938 I had it framed in my office. 1393 01:04:26,938 --> 01:04:28,757 Still have it and some other things. 1394 01:04:28,759 --> 01:04:31,579 But when I was 12 years old, I 1395 01:04:31,579 --> 01:04:33,958 think, I was watching the Democratic Convention. 1396 01:04:33,958 --> 01:04:35,695 We were talking about this. 1397 01:04:35,695 --> 01:04:37,869 And in my little 11, 12-year-old mind 1398 01:04:37,869 --> 01:04:39,876 at the time, before I really understood 1399 01:04:39,876 --> 01:04:42,838 racism, sexism and misogyny, I remember 1400 01:04:42,838 --> 01:04:44,777 watching the TV and thinking, oh, this 1401 01:04:44,777 --> 01:04:46,358 black lady's going to be our new president. 1402 01:04:47,539 --> 01:04:48,277 Remember those days? 1403 01:04:49,739 --> 01:04:51,782 And I think when Hillary Clinton ran and 1404 01:04:51,782 --> 01:04:54,347 then Kamala Harris who had the opportunity 1405 01:04:54,347 --> 01:04:56,159 to meet a few times and actually chat with 1406 01:04:56,159 --> 01:04:57,018 her, and it was wonderful. 1407 01:04:58,179 --> 01:05:00,413 I think people forget that Shirley Chisholm 1408 01:05:00,413 --> 01:05:02,909 ran for president, was the first woman to 1409 01:05:02,909 --> 01:05:06,565 get on the nomination in the Democratic, not the 1410 01:05:06,565 --> 01:05:09,079 ticket, but at the convention. 1411 01:05:09,079 --> 01:05:12,498 And she was actually stabbed on the campaign trail. 1412 01:05:13,599 --> 01:05:14,998 And a lot of people don't know that about her. 1413 01:05:14,998 --> 01:05:18,577 One thing that we do share in common is we both have MS. 1414 01:05:18,579 --> 01:05:22,338 and she lived out her final days in Texas. 1415 01:05:22,338 --> 01:05:24,838 And like I said, she's always just been like a hero of mine, 1416 01:05:24,838 --> 01:05:28,518 but she's also a reminder to me of who I used to be 1417 01:05:28,518 --> 01:05:32,139 before I knew how ugly the world could be when I was 12. 1418 01:05:32,139 --> 01:05:34,177 Like, we were poor, but I didn't know I was poor 1419 01:05:34,179 --> 01:05:36,458 until I got to school and I went, damn, we're poor. 1420 01:05:37,858 --> 01:05:39,498 Now I know what this means. 1421 01:05:39,498 --> 01:05:42,099 So you ended on that beautiful quote, 1422 01:05:42,099 --> 01:05:45,539 and so I want to ask you, why did you choose that quote? 1423 01:05:45,539 --> 01:05:46,818 "Was that for me?" 1424 01:05:49,018 --> 01:05:51,257 You know, I, too, have been disappointed 1425 01:05:51,259 --> 01:05:54,958 that America fails to live up to its promises, 1426 01:05:54,958 --> 01:05:59,179 but I think that quote, and especially coming from her, 1427 01:05:59,179 --> 01:06:01,378 suggests that that promise is still out there, 1428 01:06:01,378 --> 01:06:04,958 and we can still look forward, and we can still fulfill it, 1429 01:06:04,958 --> 01:06:07,099 but it's up to us to do that. 1430 01:06:07,099 --> 01:06:08,117 Thank you so much. 1431 01:06:09,277 --> 01:06:18,378 Thank you. 1432 01:06:18,378 --> 01:06:20,858 So I understand what we're going to do now, 1433 01:06:20,858 --> 01:06:23,137 and you're all going to laugh at me. 1434 01:06:23,139 --> 01:06:26,599 I am not on any social media except for Substack, 1435 01:06:26,599 --> 01:06:29,239 and I listen to podcasts of all kinds. 1436 01:06:29,239 --> 01:06:31,858 But when my staff said, they're going to give you an iPad, 1437 01:06:31,858 --> 01:06:32,797 I said, no, they're not. 1438 01:06:32,797 --> 01:06:34,239 I'm not using any technology. 1439 01:06:34,239 --> 01:06:36,619 I am a paper and pen gal. 1440 01:06:36,619 --> 01:06:39,170 So there should have been some cards filled 1441 01:06:39,170 --> 01:06:42,217 out for people who have questions to ask of Barbara. 1442 01:06:42,219 --> 01:06:44,297 So at this time, are we doing the microphone 1443 01:06:44,297 --> 01:06:45,338 or are we doing cards? 1444 01:06:46,398 --> 01:06:47,858 Oh, we're doing, okay, I can't see out there. 1445 01:06:47,858 --> 01:06:48,759 Oh, we're not doing cards. 1446 01:06:48,759 --> 01:06:50,159 We're doing microphones. 1447 01:06:50,159 --> 01:06:52,038 Are you the first one up, gentlemen? 1448 01:06:52,039 --> 01:06:52,639 Oh, this is just like. 1449 01:06:52,639 --> 01:06:53,398 There's a microphone right there. 1450 01:06:53,398 --> 01:06:54,978 Oh, I can't even see. 1451 01:06:54,978 --> 01:06:56,759 Okay, you guys, this is not public comment. 1452 01:06:56,759 --> 01:06:58,498 It's Seattle City Hall, okay? 1453 01:06:58,498 --> 01:06:59,838 We're not playing here. 1454 01:06:59,838 --> 01:07:01,159 There's no timer. 1455 01:07:01,159 --> 01:07:02,318 You got to behave. 1456 01:07:02,318 --> 01:07:03,498 You can't call us names. 1457 01:07:03,498 --> 01:07:05,438 Why aren't my streetlights on? 1458 01:07:05,438 --> 01:07:06,358 Yeah, yeah. 1459 01:07:06,358 --> 01:07:07,297 And why aren't you? 1460 01:07:07,297 --> 01:07:08,297 Yeah, why? 1461 01:07:08,297 --> 01:07:11,018 My favorite one is, you know, there's weeds 1462 01:07:11,018 --> 01:07:12,378 growing in my garden. 1463 01:07:12,378 --> 01:07:13,438 And what are you doing about that? 1464 01:07:14,438 --> 01:07:16,418 Why don't I have another bike lane? 1465 01:07:16,418 --> 01:07:17,918 Why don't I have a pee patch? 1466 01:07:17,918 --> 01:07:20,418 Why don't why aren't the kids splash pads on? 1467 01:07:20,418 --> 01:07:22,878 It's your fault that the electricity went out. 1468 01:07:22,878 --> 01:07:24,297 OK, I'll stop with that. 1469 01:07:24,297 --> 01:07:25,797 Let's start with you, sir. 1470 01:07:25,797 --> 01:07:26,318 Thank you. 1471 01:07:26,318 --> 01:07:28,099 Thank you for having us tonight. 1472 01:07:28,099 --> 01:07:29,639 Enjoyed the conversation. 1473 01:07:29,639 --> 01:07:30,719 My name is Dennis Larkin. 1474 01:07:31,858 --> 01:07:34,697 I can try to squeeze in two questions if I'm late, 1475 01:07:34,699 --> 01:07:36,018 because you triggered one. 1476 01:07:36,018 --> 01:07:37,619 But my first and primary question is, 1477 01:07:37,619 --> 01:07:40,099 when I look at the title of your book, The Fix, 1478 01:07:41,277 --> 01:07:47,818 especially this week, I almost lose any optimism 1479 01:07:47,818 --> 01:07:49,958 when I think about the Supreme Court. 1480 01:07:49,958 --> 01:07:54,579 And I would like to hear you speak to what's happening. 1481 01:07:55,838 --> 01:07:58,637 It looks like it's almost impossible to change. 1482 01:07:59,719 --> 01:08:03,635 And it's going to have multi-generational unless 1483 01:08:03,635 --> 01:08:06,900 there's some fix that we don't know about. 1484 01:08:06,900 --> 01:08:10,447 The other question, real quickly, if I might, you talked 1485 01:08:10,447 --> 01:08:14,371 about bringing the movement together of poor, working class, 1486 01:08:14,371 --> 01:08:17,917 whites, multigenerational, I mean, multiracial, etc. 1487 01:08:17,917 --> 01:08:21,636 And it struck me about the movement of Reverend William 1488 01:08:21,636 --> 01:08:25,113 Barber, who I know you've met, and the Poor People's 1489 01:08:25,113 --> 01:08:29,157 Campaign, which began way back in the early 90s, which I have 1490 01:08:29,157 --> 01:08:31,259 followed and participated in. 1491 01:08:31,259 --> 01:08:35,189 And I'd be interested in any comments you have about why that 1492 01:08:35,189 --> 01:08:37,077 just does not come together. 1493 01:08:37,078 --> 01:08:38,519 But first, the Supreme Court. 1494 01:08:38,519 --> 01:08:39,037 Thank you. 1495 01:08:39,037 --> 01:08:42,465 Yeah. So with regard to the Supreme Court, you know, we've 1496 01:08:42,465 --> 01:08:44,179 got this 6-3 supermajority. 1497 01:08:44,179 --> 01:08:49,345 And, you know, they have views about executive power that I 1498 01:08:49,345 --> 01:08:55,148 think are very unfortunate to be happening concurrently with the 1499 01:08:55,148 --> 01:08:58,100 administration of Donald Trump. 1500 01:08:58,100 --> 01:09:00,719 So today, you may be referencing this, 1501 01:09:00,719 --> 01:09:05,059 the Supreme Court ruled that courts do not have the ability 1502 01:09:05,059 --> 01:09:08,595 to overturn a president's orders when it comes to things 1503 01:09:08,599 --> 01:09:12,286 like removing protected status from Haitian and 1504 01:09:12,286 --> 01:09:13,578 Syrian refugees. 1505 01:09:13,578 --> 01:09:16,578 And if he wants to remove that, he can do that. 1506 01:09:17,738 --> 01:09:22,957 We've seen support for this unitary executive theory, 1507 01:09:22,957 --> 01:09:24,957 which is this idea that the president embodies 1508 01:09:24,957 --> 01:09:28,692 the entire executive branch, and even when Congress 1509 01:09:28,692 --> 01:09:31,435 puts in some guardrails, the president can 1510 01:09:31,435 --> 01:09:32,497 disregard them. 1511 01:09:32,497 --> 01:09:34,555 I think we're going to get a couple of opinions 1512 01:09:34,559 --> 01:09:38,019 in the next couple of weeks that really enshrine that 1513 01:09:38,019 --> 01:09:40,938 unitary executive theory to our detriment. 1514 01:09:42,318 --> 01:09:45,457 We've seen several dissenting opinions, 1515 01:09:45,457 --> 01:09:48,599 mostly from Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, 1516 01:09:48,599 --> 01:09:51,658 who keeps writing, if it... 1517 01:09:51,658 --> 01:09:54,000 now people, is what she seems to be saying, 1518 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,219 if there could be a worse moment in history 1519 01:09:56,219 --> 01:09:58,358 to embrace this unitary executive, 1520 01:09:58,359 --> 01:09:59,716 this is the moment. 1521 01:09:59,719 --> 01:10:03,179 This is the time when we need to be enforcing guardrails. 1522 01:10:03,179 --> 01:10:05,979 Have you met Donald Trump? 1523 01:10:05,979 --> 01:10:10,859 And because she is among the three justices 1524 01:10:10,859 --> 01:10:13,073 and the minority, those dissents are 1525 01:10:13,073 --> 01:10:14,519 not majority opinions. 1526 01:10:14,519 --> 01:10:18,238 So I think we are stuck with some bad decisions. 1527 01:10:18,238 --> 01:10:19,938 You know, it's not going to be 100%. 1528 01:10:19,939 --> 01:10:21,679 I think they're going to strike down 1529 01:10:21,679 --> 01:10:26,939 Trump's birthright citizenship order. 1530 01:10:26,939 --> 01:10:28,756 They struck down his tariffs. 1531 01:10:28,759 --> 01:10:31,296 They struck down the National Guard in Chicago. 1532 01:10:31,296 --> 01:10:32,939 So I don't think they're completely in his pocket, 1533 01:10:32,939 --> 01:10:35,340 but I do think they share his worldview, 1534 01:10:35,340 --> 01:10:36,537 which is unfortunate. 1535 01:10:36,537 --> 01:10:37,676 How can we fix it? 1536 01:10:37,676 --> 01:10:41,000 There are some proposals that I think could be done 1537 01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:44,662 through a statute and not a constitutional 1538 01:10:44,662 --> 01:10:48,136 amendment so if we had a Democratic majority in the 1539 01:10:48,136 --> 01:10:50,880 House and the Senate and in the White House I think 1540 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:55,112 you could achieve this and this idea is that we tweak 1541 01:10:55,112 --> 01:10:59,270 the Supreme Court a little bit it would take a little 1542 01:10:59,270 --> 01:11:03,158 time for it to bear fruit but the idea would be this 1543 01:11:03,158 --> 01:11:06,559 because Supreme Court justices are appointed for life, 1544 01:11:06,559 --> 01:11:09,917 to change it without a constitutional amendment, 1545 01:11:09,917 --> 01:11:14,099 you could create two classes of Supreme Court justices, 1546 01:11:14,099 --> 01:11:17,639 active justices and senior justices. 1547 01:11:17,639 --> 01:11:19,899 District courts and circuit courts already 1548 01:11:19,899 --> 01:11:22,162 have senior judges, and the senior justices would 1549 01:11:22,162 --> 01:11:25,207 be given a different role, like reviewing cert petitions 1550 01:11:25,207 --> 01:11:28,238 and emergency petitions on an as-needed basis. 1551 01:11:28,238 --> 01:11:32,783 And then the active justices would be limited to a 1552 01:11:32,783 --> 01:11:37,032 term of, say, 18 years and would be appointed to 1553 01:11:37,032 --> 01:11:41,537 those terms, maybe three of them, each president, 1554 01:11:41,537 --> 01:11:44,377 so that you would have these staggered terms 1555 01:11:44,377 --> 01:11:48,639 and no one president would get an outside percentage 1556 01:11:48,639 --> 01:11:50,837 of who ends up on the court. 1557 01:11:50,837 --> 01:11:53,837 And so over time, it would have an equalizing effect, 1558 01:11:53,837 --> 01:11:57,417 and the electorate would know, whoever I vote for president 1559 01:11:57,417 --> 01:11:59,938 is going to put three justices on the Supreme Court, 1560 01:11:59,939 --> 01:12:01,957 so I better vote accordingly. 1561 01:12:01,957 --> 01:12:05,118 And so, you know, after a certain cycle, 1562 01:12:05,118 --> 01:12:10,136 you would probably equalize some of that extremism. 1563 01:12:10,136 --> 01:12:13,051 The other suggestion that I think is good is the number 1564 01:12:13,051 --> 01:12:15,837 of justices is not part of the Constitution either. 1565 01:12:15,837 --> 01:12:17,136 That's set by statute. 1566 01:12:17,136 --> 01:12:19,417 And over our history, we've had anywhere from 1567 01:12:19,417 --> 01:12:20,500 five to ten justices. 1568 01:12:20,500 --> 01:12:22,279 We currently, of course, have nine. 1569 01:12:22,279 --> 01:12:24,631 That number nine was selected at a time when 1570 01:12:24,631 --> 01:12:27,377 we had nine judicial circuits around the country. 1571 01:12:27,377 --> 01:12:28,238 We need a tenth circuit. 1572 01:12:28,238 --> 01:12:30,037 We now have 13. 1573 01:12:30,037 --> 01:12:33,877 So maybe we could expand the court to 13 justices. 1574 01:12:33,877 --> 01:12:36,118 And when you have more voices at the table, 1575 01:12:36,118 --> 01:12:38,037 it tends to have an equalizing effect 1576 01:12:38,037 --> 01:12:41,158 because you can defeat the more extreme views 1577 01:12:41,158 --> 01:12:43,779 of any body of decision makers. 1578 01:12:43,779 --> 01:12:47,479 So those are some changes that I think have, you know, 1579 01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:48,519 some popular support, 1580 01:12:49,676 --> 01:12:52,337 and it could be done with an act of Congress 1581 01:12:52,337 --> 01:12:54,478 and a president who is amenable to it. 1582 01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:55,207 Thank you. 1583 01:12:55,207 --> 01:12:56,179 Sir, go ahead. 1584 01:12:57,319 --> 01:13:01,104 I didn't address your second question, but I'll just say 1585 01:13:01,104 --> 01:13:04,587 I agree with you that wealth inequality is a huge problem, 1586 01:13:04,587 --> 01:13:07,519 and perhaps we can see some leadership that addresses 1587 01:13:07,519 --> 01:13:11,662 And affordability matters to young voters, so I think it is 1588 01:13:11,662 --> 01:13:13,778 our future one way or another. 1589 01:13:15,279 --> 01:13:17,537 Barbara, I was just in your beautiful state of Michigan 1590 01:13:17,537 --> 01:13:20,587 last week for the Professional Women's Hockey League draft, 1591 01:13:20,587 --> 01:13:23,420 and you have a lot to be proud of in Pure Michigan. 1592 01:13:23,420 --> 01:13:25,899 That was a fun time. 1593 01:13:25,899 --> 01:13:26,819 Very good. 1594 01:13:26,819 --> 01:13:32,274 So my question was crystallized from my information warrior mom 1595 01:13:32,274 --> 01:13:36,350 who calls me every day saying, I just saw this headline, and 1596 01:13:36,350 --> 01:13:37,837 then tells me the headline. 1597 01:13:37,837 --> 01:13:40,198 How can he get away with this? 1598 01:13:40,198 --> 01:13:41,636 How is this okay? 1599 01:13:41,636 --> 01:13:44,198 And after all this time of thinking about that, 1600 01:13:44,198 --> 01:13:46,756 the question crystallizing in my mind is this. 1601 01:13:48,658 --> 01:13:53,742 If and when we go to the polls and we vote out the bums and 1602 01:13:53,742 --> 01:13:58,823 we make the changes, we bring in people who can restore 1603 01:13:58,823 --> 01:14:04,020 decency and normalcy, how can this be prevented again? 1604 01:14:04,020 --> 01:14:07,939 And to really put a fine point on it, here's what I mean. 1605 01:14:07,939 --> 01:14:11,279 We're getting victories in the courts. 1606 01:14:11,279 --> 01:14:14,518 He's being barred from this and barred from that. 1607 01:14:14,519 --> 01:14:15,658 Things are getting struck down. 1608 01:14:15,658 --> 01:14:18,019 You know, he was ordered by a court to turn the plane around 1609 01:14:18,019 --> 01:14:22,877 for the illegally deported individual who he just ignored. 1610 01:14:22,877 --> 01:14:24,279 The courts say you have to take your name down 1611 01:14:24,279 --> 01:14:25,037 off the Kennedy Center. 1612 01:14:25,037 --> 01:14:25,859 He ignores that. 1613 01:14:26,877 --> 01:14:32,136 You know, how can we enforce the wins? 1614 01:14:32,136 --> 01:14:35,287 that we, the, uh, uh, the Musk and his team 1615 01:14:35,287 --> 01:14:38,899 team, and they said, you can't go rip off all the 1616 01:14:38,899 --> 01:14:41,261 information, you know, they're pulling these, oh, we'll get to 1617 01:14:41,261 --> 01:14:41,706 in a minute. 1618 01:14:41,706 --> 01:14:42,018 Hang on. 1619 01:14:42,018 --> 01:14:44,448 Let's just finish ripping off this 1620 01:14:44,448 --> 01:14:47,493 info. How can we enforce these wins? 1621 01:14:47,493 --> 01:14:49,929 Yeah, it's a great question. 1622 01:14:49,929 --> 01:14:52,595 Um, one of, um, the suggestions I, uh, I 1623 01:14:52,595 --> 01:14:56,478 make in my book is maybe a bold change, but I think it could be 1624 01:14:56,478 --> 01:14:59,845 done with an act of Congress, and that is to take the U.S. 1625 01:14:59,845 --> 01:15:03,578 Marshal Service, which is currently part of the Executive 1626 01:15:03,578 --> 01:15:06,957 Branch and is part of the Department of Justice, and 1627 01:15:06,957 --> 01:15:10,259 move it over to the judiciary. 1628 01:15:10,259 --> 01:15:13,930 Because right now, if somebody in the Executive Branch says, 1629 01:15:13,930 --> 01:15:17,435 "I'm not going to comply with your order," there's really 1630 01:15:17,435 --> 01:15:19,136 no way to enforce it, right? 1631 01:15:19,136 --> 01:15:23,095 J.D. Vance like to say, oh, you've made your ruling, now 1632 01:15:23,095 --> 01:15:24,215 you enforce it. 1633 01:15:24,215 --> 01:15:26,404 Ha ha, justices, you can't do it. 1634 01:15:26,404 --> 01:15:28,453 But the marshals already, their 1635 01:15:28,453 --> 01:15:31,337 function is to provide courthouse security, 1636 01:15:31,337 --> 01:15:34,390 movement of prisoners, and fugitive apprehension. 1637 01:15:34,390 --> 01:15:37,095 They kind of work for the courts anyway, except 1638 01:15:37,095 --> 01:15:39,578 they are part of the Department of Justice and ultimately take 1639 01:15:39,578 --> 01:15:40,389 their orders there. 1640 01:15:40,389 --> 01:15:41,912 But if they they were in the 1641 01:15:41,912 --> 01:15:45,497 judicial branch, then if someone were to say, 1642 01:15:45,497 --> 01:15:47,738 I'm not going to obey this court order, 1643 01:15:47,738 --> 01:15:50,917 a judge could hold that person in contempt 1644 01:15:50,917 --> 01:15:54,837 and order the marshals to arrest them, 1645 01:15:54,837 --> 01:15:58,015 jail them, they already have the lockups, 1646 01:15:58,018 --> 01:16:01,519 keep them jailed until they comply with the order. 1647 01:16:01,519 --> 01:16:03,518 So that's my solution. 1648 01:16:03,518 --> 01:16:04,095 Lock them up. 1649 01:16:07,219 --> 01:16:10,118 Can I just remind people we have seven people lined up so 1650 01:16:10,118 --> 01:16:11,697 if we can get to your question? 1651 01:16:12,997 --> 01:16:14,018 Hi, Barbara. 1652 01:16:14,018 --> 01:16:17,792 I'm a career federal prosecutor retired from Jenny 1653 01:16:17,792 --> 01:16:19,636 Durkin's office in 2017. 1654 01:16:19,636 --> 01:16:20,399 Same year you left. 1655 01:16:21,618 --> 01:16:24,774 We've heard a lot about the offices, say, Maureen Comey's 1656 01:16:24,774 --> 01:16:27,796 in the Southern District and other East Coast offices. 1657 01:16:27,796 --> 01:16:30,636 I want to focus on one that you're very familiar with, your 1658 01:16:30,636 --> 01:16:33,478 office in Michigan and what's really been going on there. 1659 01:16:33,478 --> 01:16:36,318 I assume you've been in touch there. 1660 01:16:36,319 --> 01:16:40,386 The question is, how much of your AUSAs that were working 1661 01:16:40,386 --> 01:16:44,368 in the office have either been purged or have left on our 1662 01:16:44,368 --> 01:16:48,439 own, given what's going on in the Department of Justice? 1663 01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:53,506 And as my follow-up, as a law professor at Michigan, what do 1664 01:16:53,506 --> 01:16:58,161 you tell your senior students who ask, I really want to 1665 01:16:58,161 --> 01:17:02,917 be a federal prosecutor, what do you say about that now? 1666 01:17:02,917 --> 01:17:05,698 I want to apply to the honors program. 1667 01:17:05,698 --> 01:17:06,578 Yeah, thank you. 1668 01:17:06,578 --> 01:17:09,087 So in my former district, the Eastern District of 1669 01:17:09,087 --> 01:17:11,840 Michigan, I think it's been a little bit of a mixed bag. 1670 01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:13,877 There are a number of people who said, I'm leaving 1671 01:17:13,877 --> 01:17:16,118 because I don't want to work for this administration. 1672 01:17:16,118 --> 01:17:18,269 I don't know what it is that's going to happen, but at some 1673 01:17:18,269 --> 01:17:20,555 point I'm going to be asked to do something I don't want to do. 1674 01:17:20,555 --> 01:17:22,555 So a number of good people have left. 1675 01:17:22,555 --> 01:17:25,502 I'm not, oh, I am aware of a couple people who 1676 01:17:25,502 --> 01:17:28,939 were fired, not by that office, but by Washington, 1677 01:17:28,939 --> 01:17:33,037 because they had the audacity to enforce the FACE Act. 1678 01:17:33,037 --> 01:17:36,564 This is the statute that makes it a crime to obstruct the 1679 01:17:36,564 --> 01:17:38,559 entrance of abortion clinics. 1680 01:17:38,559 --> 01:17:43,398 They prosecuted very righteous cases, and part of this false 1681 01:17:43,398 --> 01:17:48,238 narrative that the Biden Justice Department was weaponized 1682 01:17:48,238 --> 01:17:50,935 was this report that said they were attacking people 1683 01:17:50,935 --> 01:17:53,694 solely on the basis of their religious beliefs, which 1684 01:17:53,694 --> 01:17:54,859 of course was not true. 1685 01:17:54,859 --> 01:17:57,100 These were cases that went to trial, and a jury 1686 01:17:57,100 --> 01:17:59,518 convicted people for obstructing the entrance. 1687 01:17:59,518 --> 01:18:02,578 So that has happened there. 1688 01:18:02,578 --> 01:18:05,595 Mostly, they've managed to stay under the radar. 1689 01:18:05,595 --> 01:18:08,679 And people still rob banks. 1690 01:18:08,679 --> 01:18:11,636 They're prosecuting ordinary cases. 1691 01:18:11,636 --> 01:18:14,457 But of course, that's probably what the prosecutors 1692 01:18:14,457 --> 01:18:17,555 in Minnesota thought until Metro surge came along. 1693 01:18:17,555 --> 01:18:20,398 So I know there's still some very good people who are there. 1694 01:18:20,398 --> 01:18:22,518 And I tell them to please stay, because we 1695 01:18:22,518 --> 01:18:25,636 need good people there to enforce the rule of law. 1696 01:18:25,636 --> 01:18:28,122 What I say to my current students is, this is probably 1697 01:18:28,122 --> 01:18:31,033 not the best time to go work at the Justice Department, but 1698 01:18:31,033 --> 01:18:34,078 going out and getting experience somewhere else, like a 1699 01:18:34,078 --> 01:18:37,877 state attorney general's office, or private practice, 1700 01:18:37,877 --> 01:18:41,840 or a public defender, there are plenty of good places where 1701 01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,478 you can serve, and I hope that in two years or so, it will 1702 01:18:45,478 --> 01:18:48,716 once again be the crown jewel of the U.S. 1703 01:18:48,716 --> 01:18:50,278 government. Thank you, sir. 1704 01:18:50,279 --> 01:18:50,537 Thank you. 1705 01:18:53,859 --> 01:18:54,719 Go ahead. 1706 01:18:55,978 --> 01:18:59,380 Hi, thank you both for your leadership and courage. 1707 01:18:59,380 --> 01:19:02,279 This has been amazing this evening listening to you. 1708 01:19:03,319 --> 01:19:05,518 So I was initially going to ask a question 1709 01:19:05,518 --> 01:19:09,479 about how to protect free and fair elections in the midterm 1710 01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:13,140 in the face of a very panicked and determined 1711 01:19:13,140 --> 01:19:17,193 Trump administration, but I'd like to pivot and ask 1712 01:19:17,193 --> 01:19:19,358 about reproductive rights. 1713 01:19:19,359 --> 01:19:21,899 I'm a University of Michigan medical school 1714 01:19:21,899 --> 01:19:25,760 graduate, a gynecologist, and my understanding is 1715 01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:29,979 there will be a movement towards personhood 1716 01:19:32,018 --> 01:19:34,676 starting at conception based on the 14th Amendment, 1717 01:19:36,198 --> 01:19:38,917 justice and liberty, et cetera. 1718 01:19:38,917 --> 01:19:43,377 and could not the 14th Amendment be used to protect women? 1719 01:19:46,158 --> 01:19:49,358 So the question is about reproductive rights. 1720 01:19:49,358 --> 01:19:52,377 Could the 14th Amendment be used to protect women? 1721 01:19:52,377 --> 01:19:55,591 I think it could because there is the Equal Protection 1722 01:19:55,591 --> 01:19:57,018 Clause that is in there. 1723 01:19:57,018 --> 01:19:59,519 And so one of the arguments I think you could make, 1724 01:19:59,519 --> 01:20:02,157 in fact, this is one that Justice Ruth 1725 01:20:02,157 --> 01:20:05,020 Bader Ginsburg thought She always thought when she 1726 01:20:05,020 --> 01:20:07,399 was, before she was a Supreme Court Justice, when she was 1727 01:20:07,399 --> 01:20:11,314 an advocate, she always thought Roe versus Wade was wrongly 1728 01:20:11,314 --> 01:20:14,854 decided, that it should not have been based on this idea of 1729 01:20:14,854 --> 01:20:18,399 the penumbra of privacy rights and substantive due process. 1730 01:20:18,399 --> 01:20:18,979 Love that word, penumbra. 1731 01:20:18,979 --> 01:20:21,399 What she thought instead was they should have made an 1732 01:20:21,399 --> 01:20:22,719 equal protection argument. 1733 01:20:22,719 --> 01:20:26,877 That is, men have the right to bodily autonomy. 1734 01:20:26,877 --> 01:20:29,939 Women should also have the right to bodily autonomy. 1735 01:20:29,939 --> 01:20:33,457 And any law that deprives women of bodily autonomy 1736 01:20:33,457 --> 01:20:36,796 violates the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause. 1737 01:20:36,796 --> 01:20:38,698 So I think that is a valid argument. 1738 01:20:38,698 --> 01:20:41,216 I also think any advocates out there, 1739 01:20:41,219 --> 01:20:43,301 you know what's a good argument that I haven't 1740 01:20:43,301 --> 01:20:45,484 really seen raised is the idea that it could 1741 01:20:45,484 --> 01:20:47,837 be a violation of the First Amendment right 1742 01:20:47,837 --> 01:20:51,501 to free exercise of religion, because life begins at 1743 01:20:51,501 --> 01:20:55,118 different points for different religious traditions. 1744 01:20:55,118 --> 01:20:58,719 For the Jewish religion, I believe it begins at birth. 1745 01:20:58,719 --> 01:21:01,778 For the Muslim religion, I believe it begins at 1746 01:21:01,778 --> 01:21:05,475 something called ensoulment, which is at viability when 1747 01:21:05,475 --> 01:21:07,438 there's first fetal movement. 1748 01:21:07,438 --> 01:21:10,417 And so I think that's a great lawsuit as well. 1749 01:21:10,417 --> 01:21:13,018 So I think both of those arguments could be raised. 1750 01:21:13,018 --> 01:21:16,438 Now, I don't know whether this current Supreme Court would 1751 01:21:16,438 --> 01:21:19,509 buy it, but it's prevailed in some states, including 1752 01:21:19,509 --> 01:21:22,719 the state of Michigan, this equal protection concept. 1753 01:21:22,719 --> 01:21:23,018 Thank you. 1754 01:21:25,118 --> 01:21:26,192 Hi, Barbara. 1755 01:21:26,192 --> 01:21:27,555 I'm Jerry Kronk. 1756 01:21:27,555 --> 01:21:30,259 There's a lot of former lawyers out here. 1757 01:21:30,259 --> 01:21:33,037 I'm one of them, or maybe current lawyers. 1758 01:21:33,037 --> 01:21:36,408 So, and being at sort of the end of the line, a lot of 1759 01:21:36,408 --> 01:21:40,358 things that I wanted to ask have pretty much been covered. 1760 01:21:40,358 --> 01:21:45,051 But one thing I have difficulty explaining to 1761 01:21:45,051 --> 01:21:50,734 my friends is how do these injunctions against Trump's 1762 01:21:50,734 --> 01:21:55,292 illegal executive orders, how do they get disposed 1763 01:21:55,292 --> 01:21:58,465 of on the supreme courts I guess it's a shadow 1764 01:21:58,465 --> 01:22:01,778 docket or whatever it is I need to explain to my 1765 01:22:01,778 --> 01:22:04,886 friends how does this happen these things 1766 01:22:04,886 --> 01:22:08,220 disappear into a procedural black hole and we never 1767 01:22:08,220 --> 01:22:10,622 hear of them again I'm so glad you brought that 1768 01:22:10,622 --> 01:22:12,850 up because I had that in my notes too about 1769 01:22:12,850 --> 01:22:13,938 the shadow docket. 1770 01:22:13,938 --> 01:22:17,738 Yeah, so the shadow docket, thank you for that question, 1771 01:22:17,738 --> 01:22:21,676 is kind of a euphemism for what was once referred to, 1772 01:22:21,676 --> 01:22:23,837 and I guess is officially referred to, as the court's 1773 01:22:23,837 --> 01:22:25,194 emergency docket. 1774 01:22:25,194 --> 01:22:26,545 And so it used to be that 1775 01:22:26,545 --> 01:22:29,658 the emergency docket was reserved for things like 1776 01:22:29,658 --> 01:22:32,337 this inmate is going to be executed tonight. 1777 01:22:32,337 --> 01:22:32,957 We want to 1778 01:22:33,997 --> 01:22:36,438 get a stay from the Supreme Court 1779 01:22:36,438 --> 01:22:39,398 until they can have time to review the case carefully. 1780 01:22:39,398 --> 01:22:43,908 And so in the meantime, they're going to grant the 1781 01:22:43,908 --> 01:22:47,453 state to halt the execution so that they can buy 1782 01:22:47,453 --> 01:22:48,658 themselves some time. 1783 01:22:48,658 --> 01:22:50,618 But it was used quite rarely, and that was sort of the thing. 1784 01:22:50,618 --> 01:22:52,957 Are the wrecking balls about to knock down the building? 1785 01:22:52,957 --> 01:22:55,037 Can we just get a stall on that? 1786 01:22:55,037 --> 01:22:57,577 What we're seeing now, and it began, the New York Times 1787 01:22:57,577 --> 01:23:00,801 had a good article on this, it began during the Obama 1788 01:23:00,801 --> 01:23:04,296 administration with a climate change rule, 1789 01:23:04,296 --> 01:23:09,095 and it was Chief Justice Roberts who essentially said, 1790 01:23:09,095 --> 01:23:12,162 well, this thing can't stand, and so we're 1791 01:23:12,162 --> 01:23:13,738 going to shut it down. 1792 01:23:13,738 --> 01:23:17,055 The idea used to be that a lawsuit gets filed, 1793 01:23:17,055 --> 01:23:20,118 a lower court might issue an injunction and say, 1794 01:23:20,118 --> 01:23:22,171 stop, we're not going to let this executive 1795 01:23:22,171 --> 01:23:24,377 order go into effect, and then the case would work 1796 01:23:24,377 --> 01:23:27,358 its way through the courts, and it might take a year or two. 1797 01:23:27,358 --> 01:23:30,858 And now what we're seeing is if a court strikes down 1798 01:23:30,858 --> 01:23:34,692 a Trump executive order, the Trump Justice Department 1799 01:23:34,692 --> 01:23:38,774 immediately appeals to the Supreme Court on the emergency 1800 01:23:38,774 --> 01:23:42,608 docket and says, you have to stay this lower court order 1801 01:23:42,608 --> 01:23:46,524 and allow this executive order to play out until it works 1802 01:23:46,524 --> 01:23:48,354 its way through the court. 1803 01:23:48,358 --> 01:23:52,009 So in the meantime, they are making decisions, but without 1804 01:23:52,009 --> 01:23:55,957 the benefit of oral argument, without the benefit of briefing, 1805 01:23:55,957 --> 01:23:59,234 without the public being able to see the reasoning of 1806 01:23:59,234 --> 01:24:02,587 an opinion, we get like a two-sentence order that says 1807 01:24:02,587 --> 01:24:06,537 the order of the district court is stayed until further notice. 1808 01:24:06,537 --> 01:24:08,099 And then it's not for two years or so. 1809 01:24:08,099 --> 01:24:09,658 So these things that disappear. 1810 01:24:09,658 --> 01:24:13,542 One of them is a decision that the Supreme Court made on a 1811 01:24:13,542 --> 01:24:15,654 Trump administration policy 1812 01:24:16,778 --> 01:24:19,773 that said you can stop immigrants and question 1813 01:24:19,773 --> 01:24:22,457 them and detain them briefly to determine 1814 01:24:22,457 --> 01:24:27,082 their nationality on the basis of language spoken, whether 1815 01:24:27,082 --> 01:24:31,518 they speak with an accent, their job, and their location. 1816 01:24:31,518 --> 01:24:34,528 So if you're working in the hospitality industry or as a 1817 01:24:34,528 --> 01:24:37,470 farm worker or you happen to be in a neighborhood with a 1818 01:24:37,470 --> 01:24:40,875 lot of undocumented immigrants, that alone can be reasonable 1819 01:24:40,875 --> 01:24:42,118 suspicion to stop you. 1820 01:24:42,118 --> 01:24:44,970 That was decided on the shadow docket despite the 1821 01:24:44,970 --> 01:24:48,314 fact that it conflicts with Supreme Court precedent that 1822 01:24:48,314 --> 01:24:49,777 was decided in the 1970s. 1823 01:24:49,778 --> 01:24:51,805 And we still don't know the reasoning because 1824 01:24:51,805 --> 01:24:52,978 it's on the shadow docket. 1825 01:24:52,978 --> 01:24:55,233 Eventually, it'll work its way up to the court and it'll 1826 01:24:55,233 --> 01:24:57,340 be fully briefed and we'll get a real decision on it. 1827 01:24:57,340 --> 01:24:59,100 But in the meantime, you can see why it's 1828 01:24:59,100 --> 01:25:00,278 called the shadow docket. 1829 01:25:00,278 --> 01:25:03,701 It's because it kind of happens offstage, and we don't really 1830 01:25:03,701 --> 01:25:06,519 get the benefit of seeing it and understanding it. 1831 01:25:06,519 --> 01:25:09,711 So I think it is a bad development for the court, 1832 01:25:09,711 --> 01:25:12,822 and it is absolutely to be attributed to Chief 1833 01:25:12,822 --> 01:25:14,377 Justice John Roberts. 1834 01:25:14,377 --> 01:25:16,238 That's a good question, too, because it's in the book. 1835 01:25:17,438 --> 01:25:22,796 In the meantime kind of thing, is the USAID is gone. 1836 01:25:22,796 --> 01:25:26,296 The education department is decimated 1837 01:25:27,337 --> 01:25:28,518 thank you 1838 01:25:32,858 --> 01:25:34,698 I'm a naturalized citizen 1839 01:25:35,756 --> 01:25:37,759 I've lived in this country for almost 1840 01:25:37,759 --> 01:25:38,259 40 years now 1841 01:25:39,417 --> 01:25:40,819 and I hear rumbling 1842 01:25:41,938 --> 01:25:45,716 of denaturalization and 1843 01:25:45,716 --> 01:25:49,555 that scares the heck out of me like here we are talking about 1844 01:25:49,555 --> 01:25:54,072 being involved and you know doing pretest and you know 1845 01:25:54,072 --> 01:25:59,479 and just as he alluded to a few minutes ago you know 1846 01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:05,917 being or whoever the authority is being able to 1847 01:26:05,917 --> 01:26:09,618 stop and talk to me and and I talk differently 1848 01:26:09,618 --> 01:26:14,095 and I know that I talk talk differently, but, you know, 1849 01:26:14,095 --> 01:26:16,578 or I talk in my local language. 1850 01:26:16,578 --> 01:26:20,238 I mean, like, all this, there's a lot of concern. 1851 01:26:20,238 --> 01:26:25,197 I'm not saying that I'm living life in fear, but before I 1852 01:26:25,197 --> 01:26:28,055 take any step, I think about these things. 1853 01:26:29,438 --> 01:26:30,256 You know? 1854 01:26:30,256 --> 01:26:32,957 So, and obviously, I look different, too. 1855 01:26:34,018 --> 01:26:37,136 Well, you are as much as an American citizen as anybody who 1856 01:26:37,136 --> 01:26:39,863 was born here, and we're glad that you're here and you're 1857 01:26:39,863 --> 01:26:40,779 glad you're one of us. 1858 01:26:44,877 --> 01:26:48,417 But there is this anti-immigrant sentiment 1859 01:26:48,417 --> 01:26:51,095 that President Trump has stoked. 1860 01:26:51,095 --> 01:26:54,283 This creation of this impression of other and 1861 01:26:54,283 --> 01:26:56,113 how people don't belong here. 1862 01:26:56,113 --> 01:26:58,457 If you ever want to feel as patriotic as 1863 01:26:58,457 --> 01:27:03,078 you can feel, you should attend a citizenship ceremony at a U.S. 1864 01:27:03,078 --> 01:27:06,819 courthouse. It is a beautiful thing where people pledge 1865 01:27:06,819 --> 01:27:09,801 their allegiance to our country and their loyalty 1866 01:27:09,801 --> 01:27:12,724 and their patriotism to our country, and yet 1867 01:27:12,724 --> 01:27:15,840 there is this fear that is being instilled. 1868 01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:17,658 I think, unfortunately, 1869 01:27:17,658 --> 01:27:20,542 you're right to feel some fear because we've seen 1870 01:27:20,542 --> 01:27:23,497 in many communities where we've had these surges, 1871 01:27:23,497 --> 01:27:26,837 people who are thrown to the ground and detained 1872 01:27:26,837 --> 01:27:28,256 because they don't have papers with them, 1873 01:27:28,256 --> 01:27:29,898 and they say, I'm a citizen. 1874 01:27:29,898 --> 01:27:31,738 Well, why do you have that accent? 1875 01:27:31,738 --> 01:27:34,176 I've lived here for 40 years. 1876 01:27:34,176 --> 01:27:36,055 We don't have an official language. 1877 01:27:36,055 --> 01:27:38,497 You're perfectly permitted to speak any language 1878 01:27:38,497 --> 01:27:39,719 you want in this country. 1879 01:27:39,719 --> 01:27:42,819 That is part of our freedom. 1880 01:27:42,819 --> 01:27:45,095 This idea of denaturalization, though, 1881 01:27:45,095 --> 01:27:48,805 I do want to reassure you that even if efforts are 1882 01:27:48,805 --> 01:27:52,332 made to denaturalize people, The only basis for that is 1883 01:27:52,332 --> 01:27:56,935 if someone obtained their citizenship by means of fraud. 1884 01:27:56,938 --> 01:27:58,118 Fraud, yeah. 1885 01:27:58,118 --> 01:28:01,238 Now, that has gone on forever in the Department of Justice, 1886 01:28:01,238 --> 01:28:04,506 although in the past the number of cases per year 1887 01:28:04,506 --> 01:28:07,572 has been like 10 to 15, and it's because someone 1888 01:28:07,572 --> 01:28:10,076 was involved in maybe a terrorism case, 1889 01:28:10,078 --> 01:28:12,948 and it turned out they procured citizenship and they made false 1890 01:28:12,948 --> 01:28:14,520 statements on their application. 1891 01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:17,304 And so denaturalization is part of the judgment 1892 01:28:17,304 --> 01:28:18,417 of the court order. 1893 01:28:18,417 --> 01:28:22,349 I don't think they have the ability to just drum up 1894 01:28:22,349 --> 01:28:24,938 things without court scrutiny. 1895 01:28:24,938 --> 01:28:27,890 But, you know, based on the charges against people 1896 01:28:27,890 --> 01:28:31,381 like Jim Comey and others, I do worry that people could 1897 01:28:31,381 --> 01:28:33,497 be targeted even baselessly. 1898 01:28:33,497 --> 01:28:36,496 But I think I still have faith in our courts that if 1899 01:28:36,496 --> 01:28:39,858 there is no basis of fraud in someone's naturalization 1900 01:28:39,858 --> 01:28:42,529 Application they should feel safe that they will not be 1901 01:28:42,529 --> 01:28:45,319 denaturalized and that their citizenship will give them 1902 01:28:45,319 --> 01:28:47,198 that freedom that they need Thank you. 1903 01:28:47,198 --> 01:28:47,676 Thank you 1904 01:28:51,198 --> 01:28:54,738 So the literacy level is variable in this country, 1905 01:28:54,738 --> 01:28:58,198 even though we live in a knowledge-based economy 1906 01:28:58,198 --> 01:29:02,572 economy, we live in a paradigm of group think who succumb 1907 01:29:02,572 --> 01:29:06,095 to the amplification of noise over signal. 1908 01:29:06,095 --> 01:29:09,069 How do we create a viable coalition to turn around the 1909 01:29:09,069 --> 01:29:11,636 country at a local, state, and federal level? 1910 01:29:11,636 --> 01:29:16,841 Yeah, great question about how we do not have great media 1911 01:29:16,841 --> 01:29:19,279 literacy in this country. 1912 01:29:19,279 --> 01:29:21,595 And I think that is something that we could remedy. 1913 01:29:21,595 --> 01:29:23,529 other countries have done so. 1914 01:29:23,529 --> 01:29:26,005 Italy has done some work on this, and in 1915 01:29:26,005 --> 01:29:29,002 particular, Finland has done some work on this. 1916 01:29:29,002 --> 01:29:31,563 Because of their proximity to Russia, they 1917 01:29:31,563 --> 01:29:35,340 have dedicated themselves to educating their population 1918 01:29:35,340 --> 01:29:37,006 about disinformation. 1919 01:29:37,006 --> 01:29:40,259 And there's some very basic tactics about when 1920 01:29:40,259 --> 01:29:43,837 When you read something, don't react emotionally. 1921 01:29:43,837 --> 01:29:47,037 Think about something before you react to it. 1922 01:29:47,037 --> 01:29:50,078 Look for the evidence for a particular claim. 1923 01:29:50,078 --> 01:29:52,738 Is it supported with evidence? 1924 01:29:52,738 --> 01:29:54,796 Make sure the headline matches the story. 1925 01:29:54,796 --> 01:29:57,877 So often, a headline is just click bait these days 1926 01:29:57,877 --> 01:30:00,377 and does not resemble the story. 1927 01:30:00,377 --> 01:30:03,399 If experts are quoted, are they an expert in this field? 1928 01:30:03,399 --> 01:30:04,778 - And don't use AI. 1929 01:30:04,778 --> 01:30:10,702 Make sure that there is a second source for every fact 1930 01:30:10,702 --> 01:30:13,796 that you believe to be true. 1931 01:30:13,796 --> 01:30:17,027 So there are basic lessons of media literacy that we 1932 01:30:17,027 --> 01:30:20,255 could be teaching people, and I think we need to do 1933 01:30:20,255 --> 01:30:23,738 that in our schools and with our adult population. 1934 01:30:23,738 --> 01:30:28,201 The other thing I think we need to do is recommit ourselves 1935 01:30:28,201 --> 01:30:30,618 to teaching civics in schools. 1936 01:30:32,518 --> 01:30:36,060 As we have moved to a STEM education model, which is fine, 1937 01:30:36,060 --> 01:30:39,752 and I think we need plenty, we need to educate our kids 1938 01:30:39,752 --> 01:30:44,095 on STEM topics, we can't give up civics because if people 1939 01:30:44,095 --> 01:30:46,849 don't understand how our government works, it makes 1940 01:30:46,849 --> 01:30:49,250 it easier for us to fall prey to the kinds of 1941 01:30:49,250 --> 01:30:52,354 claims we see like when JD Vance claims courts are 1942 01:30:52,358 --> 01:30:55,045 overreaching by checking the president's executive 1943 01:30:55,045 --> 01:30:57,765 power. That's exactly what they're supposed to do and 1944 01:30:57,765 --> 01:31:00,457 people would know that if they had civics education. 1945 01:31:00,457 --> 01:31:01,622 Thank you. 1946 01:31:01,622 --> 01:31:06,020 One of the things that you have mentioned 1947 01:31:06,020 --> 01:31:09,836 our power is in voting, protesting, doing all 1948 01:31:09,836 --> 01:31:11,832 those things, which we're doing. 1949 01:31:11,832 --> 01:31:14,117 And we're seeing in the primaries that 1950 01:31:14,118 --> 01:31:17,469 have been happening, a lot more people are coming 1951 01:31:17,469 --> 01:31:20,738 out in primaries, which doesn't always happen. 1952 01:31:20,738 --> 01:31:25,198 But at the same time, we also are seeing Mr. 1953 01:31:25,198 --> 01:31:30,679 Trump using the constant words state of emergency. 1954 01:31:32,238 --> 01:31:35,457 And he's repeating it a lot. 1955 01:31:35,457 --> 01:31:40,462 And so I think a lot of people are worried that something could 1956 01:31:40,462 --> 01:31:42,917 happen in that next election. 1957 01:31:42,917 --> 01:31:45,698 He could declare a state of emergency. 1958 01:31:45,698 --> 01:31:49,368 So I don't know legally, is there anything 1959 01:31:49,368 --> 01:31:53,198 that we can do now to somehow protect ourselves 1960 01:31:53,198 --> 01:31:54,895 from that happening? 1961 01:31:54,898 --> 01:31:57,698 You mean so we don't have another January 6th? 1962 01:31:57,698 --> 01:32:00,037 So we don't have another January 6th? 1963 01:32:00,037 --> 01:32:02,617 Like we don't have another stolen election BS? 1964 01:32:02,618 --> 01:32:04,015 Yeah, great question. 1965 01:32:04,018 --> 01:32:07,256 I don't know if we can make the system completely foolproof. 1966 01:32:08,337 --> 01:32:10,358 I think you are right to be concerned. 1967 01:32:10,358 --> 01:32:16,451 I think what we're seeing now is the president sort of putting 1968 01:32:16,451 --> 01:32:21,466 out a lot of lines in the water to try to take control 1969 01:32:21,466 --> 01:32:24,095 of the upcoming election. 1970 01:32:24,095 --> 01:32:27,036 He has already said he regrets not seizing 1971 01:32:27,036 --> 01:32:28,796 voting machines in 2020. 1972 01:32:28,796 --> 01:32:30,698 So I worry a little bit about that. 1973 01:32:30,698 --> 01:32:33,219 Now, there's no legal way for him to do that. 1974 01:32:34,398 --> 01:32:38,398 Elections are conducted, as we all know, by the states. 1975 01:32:38,398 --> 01:32:42,238 They can be, the rules can be modified by Congress, 1976 01:32:42,238 --> 01:32:46,318 like the Motor Voter Act and counting of military ballots 1977 01:32:46,318 --> 01:32:49,778 and other kinds of things like that, the Voting Rights Act. 1978 01:32:49,778 --> 01:32:53,957 But the president has no role in elections, 1979 01:32:53,957 --> 01:32:55,796 but not for lack of trying. 1980 01:32:55,796 --> 01:32:58,256 He has used the Justice Department 1981 01:32:58,256 --> 01:33:01,738 to try to file civil lawsuits to obtain ballots 1982 01:33:01,738 --> 01:33:03,018 from swing states. 1983 01:33:03,018 --> 01:33:05,868 He has used the FBI, who has seized ballots in 1984 01:33:05,868 --> 01:33:07,158 Fulton County, Georgia. 1985 01:33:07,158 --> 01:33:11,595 We just saw some search warrants executed in Ohio 1986 01:33:12,796 --> 01:33:14,898 with a voting rights organization. 1987 01:33:14,898 --> 01:33:17,176 And I think some of this is an effort 1988 01:33:17,176 --> 01:33:20,957 to try to limit the number of people who get to vote. 1989 01:33:20,957 --> 01:33:23,698 There was an executive order just today that was struck down 1990 01:33:23,698 --> 01:33:26,819 that would have directed the Postal Service 1991 01:33:26,819 --> 01:33:30,296 to refuse to send out absentee or mail-in ballots 1992 01:33:30,296 --> 01:33:33,055 to people who are not on their list. 1993 01:33:33,055 --> 01:33:37,319 So, you know, the courts are serving as a check on this. 1994 01:33:37,319 --> 01:33:40,091 But I do worry that what if he does declare 1995 01:33:40,091 --> 01:33:41,559 a state of emergency? 1996 01:33:41,559 --> 01:33:45,979 You know, we've got intelligence from a national security threat 1997 01:33:45,979 --> 01:33:48,997 about our election, and so I'm stopping the elections 1998 01:33:48,997 --> 01:33:50,796 or I'm seizing the voting machines 1999 01:33:50,796 --> 01:33:54,837 or I'm sending federal agents to polling places. 2000 01:33:54,837 --> 01:33:57,238 I don't know that we have the ability to stop that. 2001 01:33:57,238 --> 01:33:59,639 But I think one thing that we can do now 2002 01:33:59,639 --> 01:34:03,081 is to prepare ourselves to have lots of volunteers 2003 01:34:03,081 --> 01:34:06,023 out at polling places, to have lots of poll workers 2004 01:34:06,023 --> 01:34:08,420 out and properly trained to deal with things 2005 01:34:08,420 --> 01:34:10,680 that might come our way, and to pre-bunk 2006 01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:13,135 some of the myths to let people know that there 2007 01:34:13,135 --> 01:34:16,136 is this effort out there to advance a false narrative 2008 01:34:16,136 --> 01:34:19,939 that people vote who don't have, who are not citizens. 2009 01:34:19,939 --> 01:34:21,136 I mean, it's just not true. 2010 01:34:21,136 --> 01:34:25,157 And the more we can share that fact with others, 2011 01:34:25,158 --> 01:34:27,377 maybe we can help to pre-bunk some of this. 2012 01:34:27,377 --> 01:34:29,095 Right, thank you. 2013 01:34:29,095 --> 01:34:31,055 Uh-oh, look who you have up here. 2014 01:34:31,055 --> 01:34:33,188 Hello. Hey, council member 2015 01:34:33,188 --> 01:34:34,095 for House of McCray. 2016 01:34:34,095 --> 01:34:36,399 Hello, hello, nice to see you. 2017 01:34:36,399 --> 01:34:37,698 How do you approach teaching law, 2018 01:34:37,698 --> 01:34:39,417 and especially constitutional law, 2019 01:34:39,417 --> 01:34:41,377 differently under the second Trump administration? 2020 01:34:41,377 --> 01:34:43,118 And in doing so, how do you inspire courage 2021 01:34:43,118 --> 01:34:46,318 and help your students overcome a pessimistic mindset 2022 01:34:46,318 --> 01:34:47,118 about their power? 2023 01:34:47,118 --> 01:34:50,837 - Yeah, great question from a former student, thank you. 2024 01:34:51,917 --> 01:34:55,818 How do we teach constitutional law these days? 2025 01:34:55,818 --> 01:34:58,078 Our constitutional law faculty jokes 2026 01:34:58,078 --> 01:35:00,078 that it's now become a history course. 2027 01:35:00,078 --> 01:35:03,095 - Oh, wow. 2028 01:35:03,095 --> 01:35:06,617 - You know, I think we try to do it realistically. 2029 01:35:06,618 --> 01:35:08,555 I think, you know, many students were motivated 2030 01:35:08,555 --> 01:35:13,028 to come to law school today, either by George Floyd or the Me 2031 01:35:13,028 --> 01:35:16,532 Too movement, or even the first Trump administration, 2032 01:35:16,532 --> 01:35:18,627 because they want to be part of the solution. 2033 01:35:18,627 --> 01:35:19,817 So I think they're pretty 2034 01:35:19,818 --> 01:35:20,894 eyes wide open. 2035 01:35:20,894 --> 01:35:23,953 And although I try to keep partisan politics 2036 01:35:23,953 --> 01:35:27,514 out of the classroom, I'm not I'm not pro-Republican or 2037 01:35:27,514 --> 01:35:30,938 pro-Democrat in any way, but I am pro-rule of law. 2038 01:35:30,938 --> 01:35:35,136 And so I think pointing out some of these outrageous efforts 2039 01:35:35,136 --> 01:35:38,359 to destroy the norms that we've had in society 2040 01:35:38,359 --> 01:35:41,738 or to upend our constitutional notions 2041 01:35:41,738 --> 01:35:44,158 of how the three branches of government 2042 01:35:44,158 --> 01:35:47,018 have worked traditionally, I think is really important 2043 01:35:47,018 --> 01:35:49,578 to try to instill in them an understanding 2044 01:35:49,578 --> 01:35:53,770 of that the founding fathers were trying to 2045 01:35:53,770 --> 01:35:58,835 separate from a monarchy and not to put systems in place 2046 01:35:58,835 --> 01:36:01,555 that would restore a monarchy. 2047 01:36:01,555 --> 01:36:04,595 So I think we have a healthy discussion. 2048 01:36:04,595 --> 01:36:07,796 We can't always explain what's currently happening in the law, 2049 01:36:07,796 --> 01:36:11,256 but I think our students are not pessimistic. 2050 01:36:11,256 --> 01:36:14,457 I think they are actually inspired and motivated 2051 01:36:14,457 --> 01:36:15,898 to go out and make a difference. 2052 01:36:16,957 --> 01:36:18,698 Thank you. 2053 01:36:18,698 --> 01:36:19,398 Good question. 2054 01:36:21,417 --> 01:36:25,318 I'm going to try to close this out with just a few 2055 01:36:25,318 --> 01:36:27,917 thoughts and I just, thank you. 2056 01:36:27,917 --> 01:36:29,756 Those are all really good questions, so thank you, 2057 01:36:29,756 --> 01:36:30,716 Thaddeus, for showing up. 2058 01:36:31,738 --> 01:36:32,872 I'm sure she gave you an A. 2059 01:36:32,872 --> 01:36:34,438 That's what she told me in the back. 2060 01:36:36,095 --> 01:36:39,448 The book is such a good read, and not just for lawyers, and 2061 01:36:39,448 --> 01:36:43,189 what you were talking about, about civics, you know, 2062 01:36:43,189 --> 01:36:44,917 yes, STEM was great. 2063 01:36:44,917 --> 01:36:47,689 As a lawyer, former judge, public defender, 2064 01:36:47,689 --> 01:36:50,238 and a legislator for the city of Seattle, 2065 01:36:50,238 --> 01:36:53,462 I'm always astounded at a couple generations 2066 01:36:53,462 --> 01:36:56,518 of not understanding the basic principles 2067 01:36:56,518 --> 01:37:00,216 of the three branches of government that are co-equal, 2068 01:37:00,216 --> 01:37:03,760 what we can and cannot do, but also what I love 2069 01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:05,636 about Barbara's book. 2070 01:37:05,636 --> 01:37:07,358 Besides, you know, she's just... 2071 01:37:07,358 --> 01:37:09,658 I learned a lot from her book, too, like, 2072 01:37:09,658 --> 01:37:11,157 oh, I didn't know that's when they decided 2073 01:37:11,158 --> 01:37:12,877 that a president could only run two terms. 2074 01:37:12,877 --> 01:37:13,938 I learned that in your book. 2075 01:37:15,417 --> 01:37:18,157 I think the thing that struck me the most, 2076 01:37:18,158 --> 01:37:20,555 the humanity piece, is when she talked about 2077 01:37:20,555 --> 01:37:22,636 not just the corruption and the chaos, 2078 01:37:22,636 --> 01:37:25,676 but what really I felt the presence of 2079 01:37:25,676 --> 01:37:26,777 is when she talked about the cruelty 2080 01:37:27,917 --> 01:37:29,997 and that is not who we are as a country 2081 01:37:29,997 --> 01:37:31,518 yes, we have had those chapters 2082 01:37:32,858 --> 01:37:36,577 genocide, enslaving people, the trail of tears 2083 01:37:36,578 --> 01:37:38,216 we could talk about all those dark things 2084 01:37:38,216 --> 01:37:40,649 and as Obama said, yes, and that made us and 2085 01:37:40,649 --> 01:37:43,359 arrived us who we are today but as Americans we look 2086 01:37:43,359 --> 01:37:45,636 forward to always go better and go where we need 2087 01:37:45,636 --> 01:37:47,475 to be because that's what we believe in 2088 01:37:47,478 --> 01:37:49,077 and those were our leaders. 2089 01:37:49,078 --> 01:37:51,877 That was this great experiment it was supposed to be about 2090 01:37:51,877 --> 01:37:53,975 and it continues to be about. 2091 01:37:53,978 --> 01:37:57,399 So I just want to ask you this last question again, Barbara, 2092 01:37:57,399 --> 01:38:01,537 is that, you know, this idea of this cruelty 2093 01:38:02,778 --> 01:38:06,238 that has become so normalized and commodized 2094 01:38:06,238 --> 01:38:10,877 and it's just been okay to not only be cruel 2095 01:38:10,877 --> 01:38:14,819 and to have this wage inequality and wealth inequality 2096 01:38:15,858 --> 01:38:19,716 and this greed which is just surmounted into just hoarding, 2097 01:38:19,716 --> 01:38:22,359 knowing that you can park your yacht out here 2098 01:38:22,359 --> 01:38:24,318 and there are people here living under a bridge. 2099 01:38:25,457 --> 01:38:27,417 How did that strike you when you were writing the book, 2100 01:38:27,417 --> 01:38:30,537 when you were talking about the cruelty piece? 2101 01:38:30,537 --> 01:38:32,979 Yeah, it's a tactic, and I really want to 2102 01:38:32,979 --> 01:38:34,238 expose that tactic. 2103 01:38:34,238 --> 01:38:39,693 It is a tactic that is designed to give license to people to be 2104 01:38:39,693 --> 01:38:44,819 greedy, to not see the humanity of our fellow Americans. 2105 01:38:44,819 --> 01:38:47,198 It's an effort to divide and conquer. 2106 01:38:47,198 --> 01:38:50,305 And I think once we see it as a tactic, and, you know, I 2107 01:38:50,305 --> 01:38:53,555 think we need to label these things and call them out so 2108 01:38:53,555 --> 01:38:56,595 that people can see it and recognize it as a tactic. 2109 01:38:56,595 --> 01:38:59,296 Because that's how I think we counter it and overcome it. 2110 01:38:59,296 --> 01:39:02,256 We are better than this, and I think it's good 2111 01:39:02,256 --> 01:39:05,563 to remind ourselves, just as they defeated 2112 01:39:05,563 --> 01:39:09,318 hate and fear in Hungary, I think we can do the same here. 2113 01:39:09,318 --> 01:39:12,395 We see it, we call it out, we take action to do better. 2114 01:39:12,398 --> 01:39:13,658 Thank you, Barbara. 2115 01:39:13,658 --> 01:39:14,997 Big hand for Barbara McQuaid.