1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,435 ♪♪ 2 00:00:03,136 --> 00:00:04,971 -Welcome to City Inside/Out. 3 00:00:04,971 --> 00:00:07,307 I'm your host, Brian Callanan. 4 00:00:07,407 --> 00:00:08,742 State lawmakers are trying 5 00:00:08,742 --> 00:00:10,877 to regulate artificial intelligence 6 00:00:10,877 --> 00:00:13,246 with measures aimed at controlling chat bots 7 00:00:13,246 --> 00:00:14,914 and requiring disclosure 8 00:00:14,914 --> 00:00:17,350 when content is created by AI. 9 00:00:17,350 --> 00:00:18,785 -By making it clear when A.I. 10 00:00:18,785 --> 00:00:19,986 generates media, 11 00:00:19,986 --> 00:00:21,521 Washingtonians are better protected 12 00:00:21,521 --> 00:00:24,524 against confusion, deception and misinformation. 13 00:00:25,358 --> 00:00:28,128 -The state says a new law requiring A.I. 14 00:00:28,128 --> 00:00:31,131 detection tools will help prevent deepfakes. 15 00:00:31,331 --> 00:00:34,000 But tech industry leaders aren't so sure. 16 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:34,801 -And as of now, there's 17 00:00:34,801 --> 00:00:36,102 no foolproof method 18 00:00:36,102 --> 00:00:37,003 for determining whether or not 19 00:00:37,003 --> 00:00:38,371 something was generated entirely 20 00:00:38,371 --> 00:00:40,407 or in part by artificial intelligence. 21 00:00:40,407 --> 00:00:42,942 -The state's also trying to protect people, 22 00:00:42,942 --> 00:00:46,212 especially kids, from the challenge of chat bots. 23 00:00:46,246 --> 00:00:46,913 -We're already seeing 24 00:00:46,913 --> 00:00:47,814 the synthetic friendships 25 00:00:47,814 --> 00:00:49,582 of chat bots normalize self-harm, promote 26 00:00:49,582 --> 00:00:51,117 suicide and violence. 27 00:00:51,117 --> 00:00:52,685 -How much regulation does 28 00:00:52,685 --> 00:00:53,620 A.I. need 29 00:00:53,620 --> 00:00:55,321 and how will these new laws 30 00:00:55,321 --> 00:00:56,423 affect one of the leading 31 00:00:56,423 --> 00:00:58,391 industries in Washington State? 32 00:00:58,391 --> 00:01:00,493 -The companies want to hold themselves accountable. 33 00:01:00,493 --> 00:01:02,662 -Our studio panel weighs in. 34 00:01:02,662 --> 00:01:05,665 -We're seeing some pretty disturbing 35 00:01:05,832 --> 00:01:08,301 emotional attachments that teens are forming. 36 00:01:08,301 --> 00:01:10,270 -This is not a human. 37 00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:12,338 This is technology. 38 00:01:12,338 --> 00:01:14,474 -Is Washington State getting smarter 39 00:01:14,474 --> 00:01:17,544 or getting outsmarted by artificial intelligence? 40 00:01:17,777 --> 00:01:19,813 That's next on City Inside/Out. 41 00:01:20,146 --> 00:01:36,262 ♪♪ 42 00:01:39,165 --> 00:01:40,800 And great to have you back here on City 43 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,469 Inside/Out on the Seattle Channel. 44 00:01:42,469 --> 00:01:45,271 Brian Callanan here with you and I am with three people 45 00:01:45,271 --> 00:01:46,773 who will help us further understand 46 00:01:46,773 --> 00:01:48,942 these very important issues, including State 47 00:01:48,942 --> 00:01:50,610 Senator Lisa Wellman, the Democrat 48 00:01:50,610 --> 00:01:53,012 from the 41st District out on Mercer Island. 49 00:01:53,012 --> 00:01:55,115 A key figure talking about AI safety 50 00:01:55,115 --> 00:01:57,016 in this past session for the legislature. 51 00:01:57,016 --> 00:01:59,185 Thanks a lot for joining us. -Thank you for having me. 52 00:01:59,185 --> 00:02:01,054 -We also have with us Amy Harris, 53 00:02:01,054 --> 00:02:03,223 director of government affairs for the Washington 54 00:02:03,223 --> 00:02:05,125 Technology Industry Association, 55 00:02:05,125 --> 00:02:06,392 which raised a number of questions 56 00:02:06,392 --> 00:02:07,961 about these measures during the session. 57 00:02:07,961 --> 00:02:09,762 Amy, appreciate you being here, too. 58 00:02:09,762 --> 00:02:10,363 -Thank you. 59 00:02:10,363 --> 00:02:11,531 -Also with us, Dr. 60 00:02:11,531 --> 00:02:13,199 Katie Davis, UW professor 61 00:02:13,199 --> 00:02:15,135 and co-director of the Center for Digital 62 00:02:15,135 --> 00:02:16,803 Youth, which has done a lot of study 63 00:02:16,803 --> 00:02:19,305 on the impact of AI on teens and kids. Dr. 64 00:02:19,305 --> 00:02:21,441 Davis, good to have you. -Thank you. It's a pleasure. 65 00:02:21,441 --> 00:02:22,942 -Let me jump into it and I'm going to get into 66 00:02:22,942 --> 00:02:24,878 some of the details about these major AI 67 00:02:24,878 --> 00:02:26,146 bills that you were working on 68 00:02:26,146 --> 00:02:28,047 in this past session in just a minute. 69 00:02:28,047 --> 00:02:29,182 But first, I want to ask that 70 00:02:29,182 --> 00:02:30,984 overarching question of why. 71 00:02:30,984 --> 00:02:31,751 Why do you think 72 00:02:31,751 --> 00:02:33,820 AI needs to be regulated in the first place? 73 00:02:33,820 --> 00:02:34,387 There's this 74 00:02:34,387 --> 00:02:36,156 balance between managing risks 75 00:02:36,156 --> 00:02:38,625 and encouraging innovation in the field of AI. 76 00:02:38,625 --> 00:02:41,161 Senator Wellman, you either sponsored or were involved 77 00:02:41,161 --> 00:02:42,662 in the passage of several pieces 78 00:02:42,662 --> 00:02:44,597 of this legislation in this past session. 79 00:02:44,597 --> 00:02:45,865 How would you answer that? 80 00:02:45,865 --> 00:02:48,668 -Well, I do think that we've created 81 00:02:48,668 --> 00:02:52,238 a digital playground for our kids to learn in. 82 00:02:52,772 --> 00:02:55,241 I was very responsible for making sure that we had 83 00:02:55,241 --> 00:02:56,376 computer science 84 00:02:56,376 --> 00:02:57,744 because we want to get kids ready 85 00:02:57,744 --> 00:02:59,445 for the future that they're going into. 86 00:02:59,445 --> 00:03:02,081 -And you have a background in teaching and tech, too. 87 00:03:02,081 --> 00:03:07,487 -And so it's just making sure that our kids are aware 88 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,591 of the good parts and the bad parts, making 89 00:03:11,591 --> 00:03:12,325 sure parents, 90 00:03:12,325 --> 00:03:13,860 I think this is very important 91 00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:16,563 that parents are aware of some challenges 92 00:03:16,563 --> 00:03:19,566 of being on screens all the time 93 00:03:19,766 --> 00:03:22,068 and using their phones or using 94 00:03:23,036 --> 00:03:23,937 what is happening. 95 00:03:23,937 --> 00:03:24,571 And we're 96 00:03:24,571 --> 00:03:27,574 reading things in the paper that very disturbing. 97 00:03:27,574 --> 00:03:28,308 You know, there are now 98 00:03:28,308 --> 00:03:31,744 three cases of suicide where AI is involved. 99 00:03:32,345 --> 00:03:35,348 And so it it says as a responsible 100 00:03:35,515 --> 00:03:37,984 role as a legislator, 101 00:03:37,984 --> 00:03:39,152 you've got to be looking at this 102 00:03:39,152 --> 00:03:42,021 and you've got to be deciding what you can do 103 00:03:42,021 --> 00:03:44,190 to bring things forward and make people aware. 104 00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:45,391 -Thank you very much for that. 105 00:03:45,391 --> 00:03:47,360 Amy, let's let's get your piece on this. 106 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,262 What sort of regulation does AI need? 107 00:03:49,262 --> 00:03:51,030 How does that regulation impact 108 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:53,299 the business of developing AI in our state? 109 00:03:53,299 --> 00:03:55,001 -Yeah, we as a as an industry 110 00:03:55,001 --> 00:03:56,236 really wanted to make sure we aren't 111 00:03:56,236 --> 00:03:58,037 regulating ourselves out of the innovation 112 00:03:58,037 --> 00:04:00,740 and the good fortune that we have here; 113 00:04:00,740 --> 00:04:02,709 being the hub of all of these amazing 114 00:04:02,709 --> 00:04:03,710 world-class companies, 115 00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:05,778 research institutions, and the good fortune 116 00:04:05,778 --> 00:04:07,513 that we have of being Washington State, 117 00:04:07,513 --> 00:04:10,383 just not regulating ourselves out of innovation. 118 00:04:10,383 --> 00:04:13,353 And the future of tech startups we represent 119 00:04:13,453 --> 00:04:16,923 as WTIA, the 0 to 50 0 to 10 startups 120 00:04:16,923 --> 00:04:19,058 a lot of first gen Americans. 121 00:04:19,058 --> 00:04:21,361 So that was our big concern in these regulations. 122 00:04:21,361 --> 00:04:22,862 And anybody that brought us into the room, 123 00:04:22,862 --> 00:04:25,031 we were happy to be a part of those conversations. 124 00:04:25,031 --> 00:04:26,566 We had the experts that are, 125 00:04:26,566 --> 00:04:27,700 “Hey, this worked in the state, 126 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:29,702 this didn't work in that state.” 127 00:04:29,702 --> 00:04:30,903 And we've seen the EU, 128 00:04:30,903 --> 00:04:32,872 UK come down in a lot of regulations as well. 129 00:04:32,872 --> 00:04:34,207 And Senator Wellman was happy 130 00:04:34,207 --> 00:04:35,708 to bring us in on those conversations. 131 00:04:35,708 --> 00:04:37,977 And we have the subject matter experts 132 00:04:37,977 --> 00:04:40,680 and I thought we landed in really good places. 133 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:41,581 -Okay, good. 134 00:04:41,581 --> 00:04:42,649 I know there's a lot more to it. 135 00:04:42,649 --> 00:04:44,250 We're going to crack that open in just a little bit. 136 00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:44,851 But Dr. 137 00:04:44,851 --> 00:04:46,486 Davis, let me get your point of view here. 138 00:04:46,486 --> 00:04:48,755 Why do you think AI needs to be regulated? 139 00:04:48,755 --> 00:04:50,223 What does your research with kids 140 00:04:50,223 --> 00:04:52,191 and families showing you? -Yeah. 141 00:04:52,191 --> 00:04:55,128 So I've been studying the impact of various 142 00:04:55,128 --> 00:04:57,630 technologies, particularly social media, 143 00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:00,700 on various aspects of children's 144 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:03,703 and teens development for over 20 years now. 145 00:05:03,770 --> 00:05:06,339 And I think we've learned a lot 146 00:05:06,339 --> 00:05:09,776 from the example of social media and not regulating 147 00:05:09,776 --> 00:05:11,344 social media 148 00:05:11,344 --> 00:05:12,312 and how difficult 149 00:05:12,312 --> 00:05:14,814 that's been on teens and their families, 150 00:05:14,814 --> 00:05:17,083 putting all the onus on families 151 00:05:17,083 --> 00:05:18,451 to figure out 152 00:05:18,451 --> 00:05:20,086 how to regulate social media 153 00:05:20,086 --> 00:05:22,622 within the context of the family. 154 00:05:22,622 --> 00:05:23,756 And I would really like 155 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:26,759 to see us avoid that when it comes to AI. 156 00:05:27,493 --> 00:05:28,361 In our research 157 00:05:28,361 --> 00:05:29,429 at the Center for Digital 158 00:05:29,429 --> 00:05:32,565 Youth, we're seeing some pretty disturbing 159 00:05:32,965 --> 00:05:35,968 emotional attachments that teens are forming to 160 00:05:36,002 --> 00:05:37,236 AI chatbots. 161 00:05:37,236 --> 00:05:40,340 In the most extreme cases, instances of suicide. 162 00:05:41,007 --> 00:05:43,743 But even beyond that, just, 163 00:05:43,743 --> 00:05:46,612 you know, teens are forming these emotional attachments 164 00:05:46,612 --> 00:05:47,547 at a time 165 00:05:47,547 --> 00:05:50,550 when they are particularly emotionally vulnerable. 166 00:05:51,117 --> 00:05:53,052 And we just don't know yet 167 00:05:53,052 --> 00:05:55,221 what are the long term consequences of that. 168 00:05:55,221 --> 00:05:58,224 And so I think we really need to step in and regulate 169 00:05:58,591 --> 00:05:59,659 how they're developed. 170 00:05:59,659 --> 00:06:00,593 -I'm going to dive a little bit 171 00:06:00,593 --> 00:06:02,161 more into chatbots right now, if I could. 172 00:06:02,161 --> 00:06:02,995 Senator Wellman. 173 00:06:02,995 --> 00:06:04,197 Let's talk about this chatbot 174 00:06:04,197 --> 00:06:06,165 regulation that passed this session, 175 00:06:06,165 --> 00:06:09,802 including 5984, Senate Bill 5984, where you were 176 00:06:09,802 --> 00:06:10,870 the prime sponsor. 177 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:13,373 So this measure requires an AI chatbot, 178 00:06:13,373 --> 00:06:14,407 that seems human, 179 00:06:14,407 --> 00:06:16,743 to give reminders that it is not human. 180 00:06:16,743 --> 00:06:18,144 And it would also require companies 181 00:06:18,144 --> 00:06:20,313 that provide chatbots to have a protocol 182 00:06:20,313 --> 00:06:23,082 for detecting and addressing suicidal ideation. 183 00:06:23,082 --> 00:06:24,784 Can you break down a little bit further for us 184 00:06:24,784 --> 00:06:26,185 what this bill is going to do 185 00:06:26,185 --> 00:06:28,621 when it goes into effect this coming January? 186 00:06:28,621 --> 00:06:29,055 -Well, 187 00:06:30,123 --> 00:06:31,290 I think we've put the word 188 00:06:31,290 --> 00:06:34,293 out to the manufacturers of these products. 189 00:06:34,327 --> 00:06:38,331 What we're looking for and also giving the right of 190 00:06:39,098 --> 00:06:41,234 litigation where 191 00:06:41,234 --> 00:06:43,803 an important piece of this, yeah, things happen. 192 00:06:43,803 --> 00:06:47,340 And I think it's really important to set 193 00:06:47,340 --> 00:06:51,244 the stage, as WTIA is very involved, 194 00:06:51,244 --> 00:06:52,712 and as you've heard, 195 00:06:52,712 --> 00:06:55,648 they're looking across the entire country. 196 00:06:55,648 --> 00:06:56,983 We never just 197 00:06:56,983 --> 00:06:59,719 if I'm going to do a bill on anything, I'm going to say 198 00:06:59,719 --> 00:07:00,586 who's done it. 199 00:07:00,586 --> 00:07:03,122 Where else have they addressed this? 200 00:07:03,122 --> 00:07:05,191 Because as far as the industry is concerned, 201 00:07:05,191 --> 00:07:07,360 we'd like to have consistency. 202 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:08,561 It doesn't make any sense 203 00:07:08,561 --> 00:07:10,062 to have this happen in this state. 204 00:07:10,062 --> 00:07:11,831 And then you have to do this... -The patchwork idea, yeah. 205 00:07:11,831 --> 00:07:14,367 -We’re not interested in doing that at all. 206 00:07:14,367 --> 00:07:17,370 So it was very important for us to see what were 207 00:07:17,804 --> 00:07:21,040 the specific things, establishing a relationship. 208 00:07:21,107 --> 00:07:22,475 We didn't want young children 209 00:07:22,475 --> 00:07:24,210 establishing a relationship. 210 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:26,212 This is not a human. 211 00:07:26,212 --> 00:07:28,181 This is technology. -Right. 212 00:07:28,181 --> 00:07:30,983 -And making sure that that's part of that. -Okay. 213 00:07:30,983 --> 00:07:32,251 Amy, I wanted to get 214 00:07:32,251 --> 00:07:33,853 and get your perspective here, too, 215 00:07:33,853 --> 00:07:36,189 because you testified about this issue in Olympia 216 00:07:36,189 --> 00:07:38,090 and said that this chatbot legislation 217 00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:39,826 might be too broad in scope. 218 00:07:39,826 --> 00:07:41,127 I'm thinking back to January here 219 00:07:41,127 --> 00:07:42,295 when you were talking about this 220 00:07:42,295 --> 00:07:43,162 and might amending 221 00:07:43,162 --> 00:07:44,931 a making a number of companies 222 00:07:44,931 --> 00:07:46,833 more vulnerable to this litigation 223 00:07:46,833 --> 00:07:49,202 that the senator was talking about here? 224 00:07:49,202 --> 00:07:51,137 You did support the chat bot bill in the end. 225 00:07:51,137 --> 00:07:53,072 Do you have still concerns 226 00:07:53,072 --> 00:07:54,474 about what passed or how would you describe? 227 00:07:54,474 --> 00:07:56,142 -No, we landed in a much better place 228 00:07:56,142 --> 00:07:56,876 because again, 229 00:07:56,876 --> 00:07:58,544 through working through it again, 230 00:07:58,544 --> 00:07:59,011 much better 231 00:07:59,011 --> 00:08:00,646 conversations and again, 232 00:08:00,646 --> 00:08:03,049 like I just got back from a conference in D.C. 233 00:08:03,049 --> 00:08:03,950 where 234 00:08:03,950 --> 00:08:06,385 one of the main pillars of this was avoiding 235 00:08:06,385 --> 00:08:07,420 50-state patchwork. 236 00:08:07,420 --> 00:08:09,922 I don't think a child in Iowa is less valuable 237 00:08:09,922 --> 00:08:11,257 than a child in Washington state. 238 00:08:11,257 --> 00:08:15,294 So asking these companies to hire 1000 more lawyers, 239 00:08:15,294 --> 00:08:17,363 which I don't think is a good idea, 240 00:08:17,363 --> 00:08:19,999 that that to me would be unreasonable. 241 00:08:19,999 --> 00:08:21,100 I don't understand that. 242 00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:24,103 So asking that it's nonsensical. 243 00:08:24,103 --> 00:08:25,972 And if we've seen it not work here, that to me 244 00:08:25,972 --> 00:08:27,306 it means it's not going to work here. 245 00:08:27,306 --> 00:08:28,774 So a blanketed, 246 00:08:28,774 --> 00:08:31,644 better solution would make more sense. 247 00:08:31,644 --> 00:08:33,212 -What happened with that litigation piece 248 00:08:33,212 --> 00:08:35,314 that that made more sense to you in Washington state? 249 00:08:35,314 --> 00:08:36,916 -There must have been a language change. 250 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:37,917 And now I'm blanking 251 00:08:37,917 --> 00:08:40,253 as I’ve rinsed my mind 252 00:08:40,253 --> 00:08:43,456 from the 60-day session, which was a haul. 253 00:08:43,556 --> 00:08:45,992 -Yeah. -It must have been a part of it. 254 00:08:45,992 --> 00:08:46,459 Do you remember 255 00:08:46,459 --> 00:08:47,193 the language change 256 00:08:47,193 --> 00:08:48,928 that came through in it? -Not specifically, 257 00:08:48,928 --> 00:08:50,429 but that's part of the process 258 00:08:50,429 --> 00:08:52,198 that we're constantly when we put it out 259 00:08:52,198 --> 00:08:53,933 there, we're looking at amendments. 260 00:08:53,933 --> 00:08:54,300 -Yeah. 261 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:56,602 -There was a bill, actually, the bill from the House 262 00:08:56,602 --> 00:08:58,771 is the one that finally made it through. 263 00:08:58,771 --> 00:09:00,540 -There was because you said you said a bill number. 264 00:09:00,540 --> 00:09:02,108 And now I'm thinking I remember it was House Bill 265 00:09:02,108 --> 00:09:04,110 2225. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 266 00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:05,745 I was going to say that's what, 267 00:09:05,745 --> 00:09:06,913 that's what I was thinking of. Yeah. 268 00:09:06,913 --> 00:09:07,580 And I know 269 00:09:07,580 --> 00:09:10,616 there was an issue with ongoing relationship. 270 00:09:10,850 --> 00:09:12,018 So when I get in 271 00:09:12,018 --> 00:09:15,454 to chatGPT, it knows it'll say Amy's tone. 272 00:09:15,855 --> 00:09:17,456 And so it has to know me 273 00:09:17,456 --> 00:09:19,125 from the last time I went on. 274 00:09:19,125 --> 00:09:20,793 And that was one of the problems 275 00:09:20,793 --> 00:09:22,328 because it was like, we don't want it to have 276 00:09:22,328 --> 00:09:23,229 an ongoing relationship. 277 00:09:23,229 --> 00:09:25,498 And it's like, well, that's actually part of the point. 278 00:09:25,498 --> 00:09:28,501 So and having that ongoing relationship with a minor 279 00:09:28,668 --> 00:09:30,002 was it was an issue. -Okay. 280 00:09:30,002 --> 00:09:31,704 -So that like, I understand that. 281 00:09:31,704 --> 00:09:32,038 And then 282 00:09:32,038 --> 00:09:35,041 there was another issue with Alexa, so not right. 283 00:09:35,041 --> 00:09:37,476 So it's like do does Alexa have to remind a minor 284 00:09:37,476 --> 00:09:38,911 that it's not a person? 285 00:09:38,911 --> 00:09:40,246 And it's like, well, it's 286 00:09:40,246 --> 00:09:42,381 not interfacing, it's a... -Right. 287 00:09:42,381 --> 00:09:43,449 -So like, that was 288 00:09:43,449 --> 00:09:45,117 I know there was an issue there as well. 289 00:09:45,117 --> 00:09:47,853 So I think it was those are specified in language. 290 00:09:47,853 --> 00:09:48,187 =Okay. 291 00:09:48,187 --> 00:09:52,358 -And then other products had had specified specificities. 292 00:09:52,525 --> 00:09:53,326 -Right. Yeah. 293 00:09:53,326 --> 00:09:54,160 And it sounds like 294 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,829 this is going to be this is part of the ongoing 295 00:09:56,829 --> 00:09:58,364 part of this legislation for sure. 296 00:09:58,364 --> 00:09:59,265 -And it's not 297 00:09:59,265 --> 00:10:02,201 now that it's out there, we may get other information 298 00:10:02,201 --> 00:10:05,137 and have to respond to that tweaking at this session. 299 00:10:05,137 --> 00:10:06,105 -Yeah. Dr. 300 00:10:06,105 --> 00:10:08,341 Davis, I guess I'll just ask that general question. 301 00:10:08,341 --> 00:10:10,009 What impact do you see coming 302 00:10:10,009 --> 00:10:11,711 out of these chatbot regulations? 303 00:10:11,711 --> 00:10:13,579 -Yeah, so actually the piece of the bill 304 00:10:13,579 --> 00:10:18,084 that I find most promising is the piece that prohibits 305 00:10:18,284 --> 00:10:21,153 manipulative designs that extend 306 00:10:21,153 --> 00:10:22,788 emotional interactions. 307 00:10:23,756 --> 00:10:24,156 Actually, the 308 00:10:24,156 --> 00:10:29,395 piece around reminding youth that this that you're 309 00:10:29,595 --> 00:10:32,598 talking with a chatbot rather than a human, 310 00:10:33,633 --> 00:10:34,667 I'm not so sure. 311 00:10:34,667 --> 00:10:36,969 I'm not convinced that that's going to necessarily 312 00:10:36,969 --> 00:10:38,838 be helpful because there's a difference 313 00:10:38,838 --> 00:10:41,307 between knowing something intellectually. 314 00:10:41,307 --> 00:10:42,241 And, you know, 315 00:10:42,241 --> 00:10:45,244 my son has a robot at home, and we both know 316 00:10:45,244 --> 00:10:47,013 that this is a robot. -Right. 317 00:10:47,013 --> 00:10:48,948 -But it feels real. 318 00:10:48,948 --> 00:10:50,016 And so there's a difference 319 00:10:50,016 --> 00:10:51,584 between knowing and feeling. 320 00:10:51,584 --> 00:10:53,419 And even we've seen in research, 321 00:10:53,419 --> 00:10:56,088 even when people know and are reminded 322 00:10:56,088 --> 00:10:57,356 that something is not human, 323 00:10:57,356 --> 00:10:59,992 we are just natural anthropomorphizers. 324 00:10:59,992 --> 00:11:01,827 And so I'm not sure about 325 00:11:01,827 --> 00:11:03,963 that piece, but in our research 326 00:11:03,963 --> 00:11:06,932 there's a lot of evidence that 327 00:11:07,767 --> 00:11:10,603 these chatbots, the way they're designed, 328 00:11:10,603 --> 00:11:14,106 is specifically to keep and prolong engagement 329 00:11:14,106 --> 00:11:18,411 and particularly to engage users in an emotional way. 330 00:11:18,611 --> 00:11:21,647 And so I really like that piece of the bill, 331 00:11:21,647 --> 00:11:22,682 and I think that's 332 00:11:22,682 --> 00:11:23,616 a lot of our research 333 00:11:23,616 --> 00:11:26,619 is documenting these types of manipulative designs. 334 00:11:26,652 --> 00:11:26,919 Yeah. 335 00:11:26,919 --> 00:11:28,854 And I think if we can really 336 00:11:28,854 --> 00:11:30,790 wring that in from companies, 337 00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:33,025 then we'll be doing it. -Okay. Thank you. Please. 338 00:11:34,126 --> 00:11:35,261 -Sorry, I was just going to say, 339 00:11:35,261 --> 00:11:37,630 I think that that's one thing that I'm looking at, 340 00:11:37,630 --> 00:11:40,599 whether or not we say you must end the session 341 00:11:40,599 --> 00:11:43,736 completely at 10 minutes or 15 minutes. 342 00:11:43,836 --> 00:11:45,137 We'll be talking about that 343 00:11:45,137 --> 00:11:46,972 and get your recommendation. 344 00:11:46,972 --> 00:11:48,007 But that may be something 345 00:11:48,007 --> 00:11:49,442 that we'll have to do next session. 346 00:11:49,442 --> 00:11:50,042 -What do you got? 347 00:11:50,042 --> 00:11:51,277 -I know one of them was 348 00:11:51,277 --> 00:11:52,845 if I'm in there and I'm, you know, 349 00:11:52,845 --> 00:11:54,580 I want a briefing on this or I need to 350 00:11:54,580 --> 00:11:56,582 I need a tone change on this or, 351 00:11:56,582 --> 00:11:58,851 you know, summarize this 25 page, whatever. 352 00:11:58,851 --> 00:12:00,953 And then I type in at the end, Wow. 353 00:12:00,953 --> 00:12:03,723 This has been a really hard three weeks. I'm exhausted. 354 00:12:03,723 --> 00:12:06,158 Is that mean? I'm depressed? 355 00:12:06,158 --> 00:12:09,061 So one of it is like, is it is that me asking for help? 356 00:12:09,061 --> 00:12:12,998 Is that asking So is it is that an emotional like cry? 357 00:12:13,265 --> 00:12:14,867 So like, is that asking for a 358 00:12:14,867 --> 00:12:16,669 response in an emotional way? 359 00:12:16,669 --> 00:12:20,206 So I think those are those things like is that is 360 00:12:20,206 --> 00:12:23,309 that is that it's called like does it send me to 911. 361 00:12:23,342 --> 00:12:24,543 Yeah. Like do you know what I mean. 362 00:12:24,543 --> 00:12:27,446 So I know those were the things of like, I'm fine. 363 00:12:27,446 --> 00:12:29,515 Yeah, but is that me typing in. 364 00:12:29,515 --> 00:12:30,783 Do you know what I mean? 365 00:12:30,783 --> 00:12:32,184 So then what you're getting, I would at least on 366 00:12:32,184 --> 00:12:34,553 then we're getting into legal responses 367 00:12:34,553 --> 00:12:35,187 and I'm obvious 368 00:12:35,187 --> 00:12:36,689 like I'm somebody that's okay and I have good 369 00:12:36,689 --> 00:12:38,257 personal relationships and that's not that. 370 00:12:38,257 --> 00:12:39,158 But like, that's 371 00:12:39,158 --> 00:12:41,494 those are those concerns. -I see real quick 372 00:12:41,494 --> 00:12:43,229 and I want to move on to another piece of it, please. 373 00:12:43,229 --> 00:12:43,429 Yeah. 374 00:12:43,429 --> 00:12:44,497 Was there something else you wanted to. 375 00:12:44,497 --> 00:12:45,765 I was also going to say? -You know, 376 00:12:45,765 --> 00:12:47,633 when we look at Facebook and we say, you 377 00:12:47,633 --> 00:12:48,100 know, kind of 378 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:49,502 you've been on Facebook for a little while 379 00:12:49,502 --> 00:12:52,004 and all of a sudden these ads start appearing 380 00:12:52,004 --> 00:12:53,305 because you 381 00:12:53,305 --> 00:12:55,741 you didn't think that you were talking about anything. 382 00:12:55,741 --> 00:12:57,843 But, yeah, I was thinking about buying new shoes 383 00:12:57,843 --> 00:12:59,712 and there's, you know, all of that. 384 00:12:59,712 --> 00:13:02,314 So I'm concerned about gathering information. 385 00:13:02,314 --> 00:13:03,182 Privacy. 386 00:13:03,182 --> 00:13:04,583 Privacy is one of the things 387 00:13:04,583 --> 00:13:05,050 that we have 388 00:13:05,050 --> 00:13:06,352 to really examine 389 00:13:06,352 --> 00:13:09,054 in terms of what they're learning about this child 390 00:13:09,054 --> 00:13:11,323 and how it can be used, perhaps in other ways. 391 00:13:11,323 --> 00:13:11,791 -Yeah. 392 00:13:11,791 --> 00:13:13,859 Can I put chatbots aside for just a second? 393 00:13:13,859 --> 00:13:15,861 Just because I want to make sure that I talk about 394 00:13:15,861 --> 00:13:18,798 another big bill passed this session, House Bill 1170. 395 00:13:18,798 --> 00:13:20,566 And maybe, Amy, I can talk with you. Yeah. 396 00:13:20,566 --> 00:13:21,967 So this says that when content 397 00:13:21,967 --> 00:13:24,970 is substantially modified with generative AI, 398 00:13:25,171 --> 00:13:26,639 the information has to be traceable 399 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:28,307 using watermarks or metadata. 400 00:13:28,307 --> 00:13:29,108 The big concern 401 00:13:29,108 --> 00:13:29,608 I heard here 402 00:13:29,608 --> 00:13:31,577 from an industry perspective was that 403 00:13:31,577 --> 00:13:35,080 there's no guaranteed way to do this, and bad actors 404 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:35,848 are always going to find a way 405 00:13:35,848 --> 00:13:37,049 to remove those watermarks. 406 00:13:37,049 --> 00:13:37,983 Can you break down 407 00:13:37,983 --> 00:13:39,985 some of the thoughts around House Bill 1170? 408 00:13:39,985 --> 00:13:40,719 -We got 409 00:13:40,719 --> 00:13:41,654 we got to pro on that 410 00:13:41,654 --> 00:13:43,622 because by the time we had introduced it 411 00:13:43,622 --> 00:13:46,192 and then by the time it had come to fruition, 412 00:13:46,192 --> 00:13:46,625 number one, 413 00:13:46,625 --> 00:13:48,994 they had modeled it after a state that had been 414 00:13:48,994 --> 00:13:50,396 under litigation for three years. 415 00:13:50,396 --> 00:13:53,465 Again, please don't model bills after states 416 00:13:53,465 --> 00:13:54,767 that are not doing it correctly. 417 00:13:54,767 --> 00:13:56,502 To me we should be leading the way 418 00:13:56,502 --> 00:13:57,703 on doing this correctly. 419 00:13:57,703 --> 00:14:00,072 -Okay. -So don't do that. Yeah. 420 00:14:00,072 --> 00:14:01,507 Okay. Model it, please. 421 00:14:01,507 --> 00:14:03,309 Let's be the model of how to do this right. 422 00:14:04,844 --> 00:14:06,512 That that was the issue there. 423 00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:07,246 -Okay. 424 00:14:07,246 --> 00:14:08,781 -We got to pro on it, but it was 425 00:14:08,781 --> 00:14:10,049 there will be bad actors. 426 00:14:10,049 --> 00:14:11,116 But if we can do this right 427 00:14:11,116 --> 00:14:13,018 and it got it got to a much better place 428 00:14:13,018 --> 00:14:14,987 and the companies want to hold themselves accountable. 429 00:14:14,987 --> 00:14:16,789 Those large actors want to hold themselves accountable 430 00:14:16,789 --> 00:14:18,490 because then they can be the ones leading it. 431 00:14:18,490 --> 00:14:19,358 -Okay, Do 432 00:14:19,358 --> 00:14:20,659 they have concerns that, well, 433 00:14:20,659 --> 00:14:22,428 maybe I'll hold that question for just a second 434 00:14:22,428 --> 00:14:24,530 because I want to get some more input here. 435 00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:25,231 Dr. Davis, 436 00:14:25,231 --> 00:14:26,365 some thoughts about this idea 437 00:14:26,365 --> 00:14:28,133 of requiring watermarks, etc.. 438 00:14:28,133 --> 00:14:30,803 Do you think House Bill 1170 is going to be effective? 439 00:14:30,803 --> 00:14:33,072 -I was less involved with that House bill. 440 00:14:33,072 --> 00:14:34,740 However, I do feel that there's 441 00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:38,010 real opportunity there when it comes to 442 00:14:38,611 --> 00:14:41,614 developing children's AI literacy and helping them 443 00:14:42,281 --> 00:14:45,217 to figure out what is AI versus not 444 00:14:45,217 --> 00:14:47,853 and what should I trust when I when I'm reading 445 00:14:47,853 --> 00:14:50,122 and encountering content online and not so... 446 00:14:50,122 --> 00:14:53,125 I do see that there's some value there 447 00:14:53,192 --> 00:14:53,792 in that bill 448 00:14:53,792 --> 00:14:55,227 that could be incorporated 449 00:14:55,227 --> 00:14:57,663 into educational interventions 450 00:14:57,663 --> 00:14:59,765 to help develop young people's AI 451 00:14:59,765 --> 00:15:00,933 literacy. -Got it. 452 00:15:00,933 --> 00:15:01,700 And this feels like 453 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:03,502 one of those situations where it's a moving 454 00:15:03,502 --> 00:15:05,237 target again, but some toss up. 455 00:15:05,237 --> 00:15:06,872 -Well, I was also going to say that 456 00:15:06,872 --> 00:15:08,941 one of the things that we did was to specify 457 00:15:08,941 --> 00:15:10,776 that if you use the word nurse, 458 00:15:10,776 --> 00:15:12,344 you have to specify that 459 00:15:12,344 --> 00:15:15,014 that cannot be used for an AI. 460 00:15:15,014 --> 00:15:16,248 In other words, I'm a nurse, I'm 461 00:15:16,248 --> 00:15:17,483 giving you this information. 462 00:15:17,483 --> 00:15:20,552 It must be a person who has a degree of a nurse. 463 00:15:20,552 --> 00:15:22,588 -I see. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. 464 00:15:22,588 --> 00:15:22,788 That's 465 00:15:22,788 --> 00:15:25,858 and just overall, with 1170, do you think it's going 466 00:15:25,858 --> 00:15:27,826 to be it's going to be effective. 467 00:15:27,826 --> 00:15:29,428 What are your thoughts about that piece? 468 00:15:29,428 --> 00:15:29,862 -Yeah, no, 469 00:15:29,862 --> 00:15:31,697 I think that we are going to make a difference 470 00:15:31,697 --> 00:15:33,766 with all the bills that we did. 471 00:15:33,766 --> 00:15:34,533 I think, 472 00:15:34,533 --> 00:15:35,701 you know, we're teaching 473 00:15:35,701 --> 00:15:38,337 digital literacy is one of the really 474 00:15:38,337 --> 00:15:41,040 challenging things that we're focusing in on 475 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,242 and making sure that people understand is 476 00:15:43,242 --> 00:15:44,643 you can only imagine 477 00:15:44,643 --> 00:15:47,947 the things you've seen on YouTube, etc.. 478 00:15:48,013 --> 00:15:48,881 -Yeah. 479 00:15:48,881 --> 00:15:50,249 -And you're being told that 480 00:15:50,249 --> 00:15:51,684 somebody is saying something. 481 00:15:52,851 --> 00:15:54,687 You want to have some degree of confidence 482 00:15:54,687 --> 00:15:57,056 that that is the person saying it. -Yeah. 483 00:15:57,056 --> 00:15:59,458 -That what you're seeing is authentic. 484 00:15:59,458 --> 00:16:00,159 -Yeah. 485 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:02,094 You don't think people can can work around that. 486 00:16:02,094 --> 00:16:04,296 I've seen some amazing things done with AI. 487 00:16:04,296 --> 00:16:05,798 What are your thoughts about that? 488 00:16:05,798 --> 00:16:06,932 -Well, I'm 489 00:16:06,932 --> 00:16:08,867 I will tell you and I've said before that 490 00:16:08,867 --> 00:16:12,271 I am a science fiction nut and I read a lot of science 491 00:16:12,271 --> 00:16:15,307 fiction nut, and I love Isaac Asimov. 492 00:16:15,541 --> 00:16:16,842 -Oh, one of my faves. 493 00:16:16,842 --> 00:16:19,511 -So the three laws of robotics. -Ah, there we go. 494 00:16:19,511 --> 00:16:22,214 -The robot may not harm a human. 495 00:16:22,214 --> 00:16:23,582 I don't see any three laws, 496 00:16:23,582 --> 00:16:25,651 four laws or five laws of AI. 497 00:16:25,651 --> 00:16:28,654 And I think that that's unfortunate that companies 498 00:16:28,654 --> 00:16:31,056 that we need to be doing the work that we're doing. 499 00:16:31,056 --> 00:16:31,423 -Yeah. 500 00:16:31,423 --> 00:16:32,891 -And by the way, we were ready. 501 00:16:32,891 --> 00:16:36,295 Now, EU just passed their AI program 502 00:16:36,662 --> 00:16:40,199 and I think we want to be consistent across the world 503 00:16:40,499 --> 00:16:41,734 because all of our companies 504 00:16:41,734 --> 00:16:43,902 do a lot of business in other parts of the world. 505 00:16:43,902 --> 00:16:45,037 -Yeah, yeah, that's true. 506 00:16:45,037 --> 00:16:47,272 -”I, Robot,” read the book, don't watch the movie. 507 00:16:47,272 --> 00:16:49,008 I just want to make sure I put that out there. 508 00:16:49,008 --> 00:16:50,743 Let me talk about the industry of 509 00:16:50,743 --> 00:16:51,810 AI in the state. 510 00:16:51,810 --> 00:16:53,245 Maybe I'll just go down the line here. 511 00:16:53,245 --> 00:16:56,281 Dr. Davis This critique that regulating AI 512 00:16:56,281 --> 00:16:58,350 too much might have bad effect 513 00:16:58,350 --> 00:17:00,085 on an important industry in Washington. 514 00:17:00,085 --> 00:17:01,720 You have companies saying new laws 515 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,422 could stifle innovation in our state. 516 00:17:03,422 --> 00:17:05,090 There's also a threat from President Trump, 517 00:17:05,090 --> 00:17:05,691 who signed 518 00:17:05,691 --> 00:17:07,359 an executive order back in December 519 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:08,427 saying he would pull 520 00:17:08,427 --> 00:17:10,195 federal broadband funding from states 521 00:17:10,195 --> 00:17:12,064 if the federal government believes 522 00:17:12,064 --> 00:17:14,600 that states have passed onerous AI laws. 523 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,268 Regulation hurting innovation. 524 00:17:16,268 --> 00:17:17,336 What's your stance on that? 525 00:17:18,303 --> 00:17:19,972 -Well, what I would love to see 526 00:17:19,972 --> 00:17:23,876 is AI companies compete in an innovative way 527 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:28,747 to develop products that support well-being 528 00:17:28,747 --> 00:17:30,049 rather than 529 00:17:30,049 --> 00:17:33,585 prolong engagement and and take advantage of our 530 00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:35,721 our attachment system. 531 00:17:35,721 --> 00:17:37,456 -But where's the financial incentive in that? 532 00:17:37,456 --> 00:17:37,823 -Well, 533 00:17:37,823 --> 00:17:40,526 if they are compelled to by regulation, 534 00:17:40,526 --> 00:17:41,527 then I think they could get 535 00:17:41,527 --> 00:17:43,362 really creative and innovative 536 00:17:43,362 --> 00:17:45,764 in the way they design their products 537 00:17:45,764 --> 00:17:48,600 so that they're putting well-being first. 538 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,537 And I don't see how putting well-being 539 00:17:51,537 --> 00:17:54,540 first is at odds with innovation. 540 00:17:54,973 --> 00:17:57,709 But I just think that the incentives right now 541 00:17:57,709 --> 00:18:01,180 are more to capture market share and 542 00:18:01,980 --> 00:18:04,116 to put engagement and capturing 543 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:06,151 as many users as possible. 544 00:18:06,151 --> 00:18:08,921 That is first and it really blocks out 545 00:18:08,921 --> 00:18:12,458 some well intentioned actors who maybe can't get in 546 00:18:13,058 --> 00:18:14,493 and establish a foothold. 547 00:18:14,493 --> 00:18:16,261 And so I feel like regulation 548 00:18:16,261 --> 00:18:18,464 could really help even the playing field 549 00:18:18,464 --> 00:18:21,467 so that companies are compelled to innovate 550 00:18:22,067 --> 00:18:24,870 on the basis of well-being rather than engagement. 551 00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:26,238 -Amy, let me ask you this question. 552 00:18:26,238 --> 00:18:28,240 I know you've heard some of these points before. 553 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,509 When does regulation become too much? 554 00:18:30,509 --> 00:18:32,611 When does it stifle innovation? 555 00:18:32,611 --> 00:18:34,913 -We're a pretty heavy regulated state. 556 00:18:34,913 --> 00:18:36,782 So, yes, it will drive our innovation. 557 00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:38,884 And that's that's a WTIA position. 558 00:18:38,884 --> 00:18:41,587 There was 20 bills that affected tech. 559 00:18:41,587 --> 00:18:43,989 Two passed this last legislative session. 560 00:18:43,989 --> 00:18:45,357 So I think everybody's 561 00:18:45,357 --> 00:18:47,726 I think tech is fine if we're brought to the table. 562 00:18:47,726 --> 00:18:49,228 Again, we have subject matter experts 563 00:18:49,228 --> 00:18:50,362 that have worked in this 564 00:18:50,362 --> 00:18:51,830 that want to see 565 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:54,666 a national framework, not a 50-state patchwork. 566 00:18:55,634 --> 00:18:57,302 A national framework from the 567 00:18:57,302 --> 00:18:58,971 last conference I was out in D.C. 568 00:18:58,971 --> 00:19:00,272 would involve 569 00:19:00,272 --> 00:19:02,908 national security, child safety and protection 570 00:19:02,908 --> 00:19:03,942 for innovators. 571 00:19:03,942 --> 00:19:06,512 So if we long as we are protecting people that are 572 00:19:06,512 --> 00:19:09,715 putting themselves out there and starting that 573 00:19:09,748 --> 00:19:14,052 we have to protect people that are willing to 574 00:19:14,820 --> 00:19:16,021 start that, 575 00:19:16,021 --> 00:19:18,991 to start their American dream, to start their 576 00:19:18,991 --> 00:19:22,060 their passion, I think we can do that. 577 00:19:22,060 --> 00:19:23,795 And we a lot of them, what's hard is 578 00:19:23,795 --> 00:19:27,666 a lot of them are former big, big tech employees. 579 00:19:27,666 --> 00:19:29,168 And we have that hub here. 580 00:19:29,168 --> 00:19:30,536 And what's funny is when I'm there 581 00:19:30,536 --> 00:19:31,803 and when I was in D.C. 582 00:19:31,803 --> 00:19:33,839 and I was talking to people from Arizona, 583 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:35,541 Louisiana and Pennsylvania, they're just like, 584 00:19:35,541 --> 00:19:37,009 wow, like Washington, that's the model. 585 00:19:37,009 --> 00:19:39,178 And when you're here, it doesn't feel that way. 586 00:19:39,178 --> 00:19:40,846 It's more of a burden then, yeah, 587 00:19:40,846 --> 00:19:42,948 then this massive something to clamor for. 588 00:19:42,948 --> 00:19:44,249 -But but just in looking at that, 589 00:19:44,249 --> 00:19:46,552 you still hold the concern that these new laws 590 00:19:46,552 --> 00:19:48,520 that have been passed will push out 591 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,288 some tech companies 592 00:19:49,288 --> 00:19:50,289 -Think what happened this 593 00:19:50,289 --> 00:19:52,357 last legislative session because we were 594 00:19:52,357 --> 00:19:54,059 we were brought in on some of these, 595 00:19:54,059 --> 00:19:55,327 but not all of them. 596 00:19:55,327 --> 00:19:55,928 And some of them 597 00:19:55,928 --> 00:19:57,162 it was like maybe they just didn't pass 598 00:19:57,162 --> 00:19:58,497 because there wasn't enough time. 599 00:19:58,497 --> 00:20:00,666 There's only a 60 day session. -Right. 600 00:20:00,666 --> 00:20:01,700 -I'm not sure. So. 601 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:03,402 -And one more follow up here. 602 00:20:03,402 --> 00:20:06,738 Do people to people trust big tech, right? 603 00:20:06,738 --> 00:20:07,673 (overlapping conversation) 604 00:20:07,673 --> 00:20:09,408 -It’s more of the overarching narrative. Yeah. 605 00:20:09,408 --> 00:20:09,841 It's funny, 606 00:20:09,841 --> 00:20:11,476 we have people that would come in 607 00:20:11,476 --> 00:20:14,379 and on Zoom and talk about how terrible 608 00:20:14,379 --> 00:20:16,081 we were and all of these, and it was like, 609 00:20:16,081 --> 00:20:18,717 Wait a year, You just disconnected it. 610 00:20:18,717 --> 00:20:20,552 Like you're here to tell me how terrible I am. 611 00:20:20,552 --> 00:20:21,620 And it was like, and look where we are. 612 00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:22,454 We're in the studio 613 00:20:22,454 --> 00:20:23,989 and we're doing this amazing thing. 614 00:20:23,989 --> 00:20:26,225 And so it's like, we can't what a double edged sword. 615 00:20:26,225 --> 00:20:27,092 So and I understand 616 00:20:27,092 --> 00:20:29,194 the concerns and the worries with it. 617 00:20:29,194 --> 00:20:30,963 It's almost the same as Big Pharma. 618 00:20:30,963 --> 00:20:31,630 Like what? 619 00:20:31,630 --> 00:20:33,599 You know, you hate it until you have cancer. 620 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:34,466 So I don't know. 621 00:20:34,466 --> 00:20:35,300 I don't know what to tell you. 622 00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:36,768 So I think we just need 623 00:20:36,768 --> 00:20:38,704 to continue working through those things. 624 00:20:38,704 --> 00:20:41,807 And I, I completely understand those worries. 625 00:20:41,807 --> 00:20:43,842 But what a what a fortune that we have here. 626 00:20:43,842 --> 00:20:45,177 -Okay, Senator 627 00:20:45,177 --> 00:20:45,477 Wellman 628 00:20:45,477 --> 00:20:47,079 I know you've heard some of these critiques, too, 629 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,381 about how AI regulation could impact 630 00:20:49,381 --> 00:20:51,049 a global industry in our state. 631 00:20:51,049 --> 00:20:53,051 What is your message to industry leaders 632 00:20:53,051 --> 00:20:53,852 here in Washington 633 00:20:53,852 --> 00:20:56,722 who are concerned about maybe what the legislature 634 00:20:56,722 --> 00:20:57,789 is doing to their businesses? 635 00:20:59,091 --> 00:21:01,560 -Well, first of all, I have not heard that 636 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,396 from any big tech companies, and I have been lobbied 637 00:21:04,396 --> 00:21:05,564 by them all. 638 00:21:05,564 --> 00:21:07,699 I have not heard that they have 639 00:21:07,699 --> 00:21:10,002 their business has been hurt by what we're doing. 640 00:21:10,002 --> 00:21:14,106 And being able to praise them 641 00:21:14,106 --> 00:21:15,907 and bring them forward and say, 642 00:21:15,907 --> 00:21:18,143 look how this company is responding 643 00:21:18,143 --> 00:21:20,245 to the concerns that we've brought forth 644 00:21:20,245 --> 00:21:22,447 is the best advertising you can get. 645 00:21:22,447 --> 00:21:24,549 So I don't think that that's really the problem. 646 00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:26,585 I do think that on a national level, 647 00:21:26,585 --> 00:21:28,620 we have some issues as far as 648 00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:31,456 big tech is concerned and that is we're now 649 00:21:31,456 --> 00:21:34,459 seeing some of big tech leave the country 650 00:21:34,726 --> 00:21:38,363 because of being here on visas. 651 00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:38,930 You're right, 652 00:21:38,930 --> 00:21:40,832 with immigration, we have other pieces 653 00:21:40,832 --> 00:21:43,235 that are concerning, much more concerning to me 654 00:21:43,235 --> 00:21:44,002 in our state, 655 00:21:44,002 --> 00:21:47,005 we really have lost half of the bioscience 656 00:21:47,773 --> 00:21:49,308 industry of our state. 657 00:21:49,308 --> 00:21:51,343 Not that it's not continuing, 658 00:21:51,343 --> 00:21:52,644 but where it's being done 659 00:21:52,644 --> 00:21:55,080 is going to be done in another country unfortunately. 660 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,115 -A whole other show there. Thank you. 661 00:21:57,115 --> 00:21:58,984 -We'll follow up. -I can't wait. Okay. 662 00:21:58,984 --> 00:22:00,686 We do need to start wrapping up now. 663 00:22:00,686 --> 00:22:01,086 And I, 664 00:22:01,086 --> 00:22:02,287 I think it's important to point out 665 00:22:02,287 --> 00:22:05,290 that this conversation, this has come up a few times. 666 00:22:05,290 --> 00:22:06,425 AI when it comes to regulation, 667 00:22:06,425 --> 00:22:07,359 it's constantly changing. 668 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,594 It feels like a moving target here in many ways. 669 00:22:09,594 --> 00:22:11,997 City of Seattle, for example, is right now 670 00:22:11,997 --> 00:22:12,597 trying to figure out 671 00:22:12,597 --> 00:22:14,132 the best way to roll out the use of 672 00:22:14,132 --> 00:22:16,468 Microsoft Copilot among city workers, 673 00:22:16,468 --> 00:22:17,669 one of many local governments 674 00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:20,372 grappling with the risks and benefits of AI use. 675 00:22:20,372 --> 00:22:22,574 Senator Wellman, maybe I can start with you. 676 00:22:22,574 --> 00:22:24,776 What advice do you have for local leaders, 677 00:22:24,776 --> 00:22:26,712 maybe some state leaders, too, trying 678 00:22:26,712 --> 00:22:29,081 to create some guidelines about how to use AI 679 00:22:29,081 --> 00:22:29,915 properly? 680 00:22:29,915 --> 00:22:30,582 -Well, I think 681 00:22:30,582 --> 00:22:33,719 there are different issues surrounding every use. 682 00:22:33,985 --> 00:22:34,986 I'm very excited. 683 00:22:34,986 --> 00:22:37,089 We know we have a housing problem, 684 00:22:37,089 --> 00:22:38,690 a significant housing problem. 685 00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:41,827 If we can speed up the permitting process, 686 00:22:41,993 --> 00:22:43,395 which sometimes can go on 687 00:22:43,395 --> 00:22:45,030 for months and months and months, 688 00:22:45,030 --> 00:22:46,832 where we can get more housing out there. 689 00:22:46,832 --> 00:22:48,300 That's a very good thing. 690 00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:50,702 So we what we need to be working in a partnership, 691 00:22:50,702 --> 00:22:52,170 but we have to know that we're working 692 00:22:52,170 --> 00:22:53,405 with a trusted partner 693 00:22:53,405 --> 00:22:55,140 who is responsible and listening 694 00:22:55,140 --> 00:22:58,443 to the concerns that we have. -Yeah, trying to use AI 695 00:22:58,477 --> 00:23:00,178 for good, it sounds like. -Absolutely. 696 00:23:00,178 --> 00:23:02,114 There's so many things I can think of where 697 00:23:02,114 --> 00:23:04,082 AI can make a really positive difference. 698 00:23:04,082 --> 00:23:06,184 -Okay. Looking forward to hearing more about that. 699 00:23:06,184 --> 00:23:07,352 Amy, same question to you. 700 00:23:07,352 --> 00:23:08,820 How should local governments 701 00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:10,889 be approaching this issue of regulating AI? 702 00:23:10,889 --> 00:23:12,124 What should they be keeping in mind? 703 00:23:12,124 --> 00:23:15,660 -100%. We don't hear it because it's not attention grabbing. 704 00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:16,895 The Department of Natural Resources 705 00:23:16,895 --> 00:23:18,964 is already using it for detecting wildfires. 706 00:23:18,964 --> 00:23:21,199 I'm sure you're aware of that. Why? 707 00:23:21,199 --> 00:23:22,801 Why is that not getting more? 708 00:23:22,801 --> 00:23:24,269 I mean, this is a ways that we can help 709 00:23:24,269 --> 00:23:25,370 people save lives, 710 00:23:25,370 --> 00:23:27,072 get people out of their homes quicker. -Yeah. 711 00:23:27,072 --> 00:23:28,106 -I mean, there's there's already 712 00:23:28,106 --> 00:23:29,341 so many ways that we're using it. 713 00:23:29,341 --> 00:23:30,675 So not sexy, 714 00:23:30,675 --> 00:23:32,778 not the headline, but we have got it. 715 00:23:32,778 --> 00:23:34,713 We have got to be integrating this quicker. 716 00:23:34,713 --> 00:23:36,381 -I was just at a demonstration 717 00:23:36,381 --> 00:23:38,550 and seeing that they can identify 718 00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:40,218 that, is this kind of a fire, 719 00:23:40,218 --> 00:23:41,553 you don't have to worry about it 720 00:23:41,553 --> 00:23:43,455 and identifying that this is a fire. 721 00:23:43,455 --> 00:23:44,890 Get the guys there immediately. 722 00:23:44,890 --> 00:23:47,259 -I see saving lives. I mean, some of this stuff. 723 00:23:47,259 --> 00:23:49,494 So but like, that's not I get that's not clickbait. 724 00:23:49,494 --> 00:23:51,496 That's not that's I understand that. 725 00:23:51,496 --> 00:23:54,332 But but that to me is also like on tech of like 726 00:23:54,332 --> 00:23:55,734 why aren’t we telling this story better? 727 00:23:55,734 --> 00:23:57,068 Yeah. So let's, let's, let's do that. 728 00:23:57,068 --> 00:23:57,936 -You think there might be 729 00:23:57,936 --> 00:24:01,039 some other avenues too, in terms of using AI 730 00:24:01,106 --> 00:24:03,809 for good? Okay. Okay. All right. All right. I know 731 00:24:04,876 --> 00:24:05,710 an interesting 732 00:24:05,710 --> 00:24:07,646 piece ahead from you to look at the story. 733 00:24:07,646 --> 00:24:08,513 I can't wait. 734 00:24:08,513 --> 00:24:11,049 I can't wait. I can't wait. 735 00:24:11,049 --> 00:24:13,752 Dr. Davis, I'll jump jump to you to finish up here. 736 00:24:13,752 --> 00:24:15,720 You study a lot of kids and families 737 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,355 dealing with the impact of AI. 738 00:24:17,355 --> 00:24:19,658 What sort of things should, I guess the average person, 739 00:24:19,658 --> 00:24:21,359 the average family, be considering 740 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,962 moving forward when it comes to this debate over AI? 741 00:24:23,962 --> 00:24:25,964 There's a lot to consider. What do you have to say? 742 00:24:25,964 --> 00:24:28,533 -Yes. Well, that's right. 743 00:24:28,533 --> 00:24:32,838 So with all of my research, we find over and over again 744 00:24:32,838 --> 00:24:34,406 that when it comes to 745 00:24:34,406 --> 00:24:38,243 figuring out and navigating how to introduce kids 746 00:24:38,243 --> 00:24:41,246 to different technologies, social media 747 00:24:41,546 --> 00:24:44,583 and the Internet, cell phones, and now AI, 748 00:24:44,883 --> 00:24:48,720 a lot of those decisions fall to individual families 749 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,723 and individual youth and parents. 750 00:24:52,257 --> 00:24:55,460 And so I see the same thing happening here with AI. 751 00:24:55,494 --> 00:24:58,897 And I guess I would just want families to know 752 00:24:59,164 --> 00:25:02,434 that absolutely learn as much as you can about AI. 753 00:25:02,467 --> 00:25:05,303 Have conversations with your kids 754 00:25:05,303 --> 00:25:09,541 as much as possible, but also look to lawmakers 755 00:25:09,541 --> 00:25:12,544 and look to broader systems for guidance. 756 00:25:12,711 --> 00:25:14,846 I really strongly believe that 757 00:25:14,846 --> 00:25:16,081 all of this responsibility 758 00:25:16,081 --> 00:25:19,050 should not be foisted on individual families 759 00:25:19,317 --> 00:25:22,554 because these are very complicated situations 760 00:25:22,554 --> 00:25:24,155 and challenges that we're dealing with. 761 00:25:25,323 --> 00:25:26,691 Me as a researcher, we need 762 00:25:26,691 --> 00:25:29,728 to step up and figure out what are the effects 763 00:25:29,728 --> 00:25:32,130 of young people's engagement with AI. 764 00:25:32,130 --> 00:25:34,199 We need to communicate that well. 765 00:25:34,199 --> 00:25:37,202 Lawmakers need to pass robust legislation. 766 00:25:37,903 --> 00:25:41,006 And yeah, and then to really support our families. 767 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:42,040 -Just quickly on this, 768 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:42,440 is there a 769 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,175 resource that you like to direct families 770 00:25:44,175 --> 00:25:46,478 to when they have questions about this? -Yes. 771 00:25:46,478 --> 00:25:48,013 So we at the Center 772 00:25:48,013 --> 00:25:50,515 for Digital Youth, we have our website, 773 00:25:50,515 --> 00:25:53,518 but I also think there's some great other resources. 774 00:25:54,085 --> 00:25:55,587 The American Academy of 775 00:25:55,587 --> 00:25:57,589 Pediatrics has a wonderful website 776 00:25:57,589 --> 00:26:01,593 with a ton of resources on every sort of technology 777 00:26:01,593 --> 00:26:02,794 that you can think of. 778 00:26:02,794 --> 00:26:05,897 Common Sense Media has fantastic resources 779 00:26:05,897 --> 00:26:07,732 to help 780 00:26:07,732 --> 00:26:08,667 parents to navigate 781 00:26:08,667 --> 00:26:12,537 which applications and devices are okay 782 00:26:12,537 --> 00:26:14,239 and safe for my kids and which are not. 783 00:26:14,239 --> 00:26:15,206 -Okay, Thank you for that. 784 00:26:15,206 --> 00:26:17,275 And just a note to folks at home. 785 00:26:17,275 --> 00:26:18,610 If you or someone you know 786 00:26:18,610 --> 00:26:20,011 is having a serious problem with AI, 787 00:26:20,011 --> 00:26:22,047 might be facing a mental health crisis-- 788 00:26:22,047 --> 00:26:23,582 local support is available. 789 00:26:23,582 --> 00:26:26,351 Make sure you call or text 988. We'll be right back. 790 00:26:27,485 --> 00:26:28,520 What are people saying 791 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,523 online about regulating artificial intelligence? 792 00:26:31,623 --> 00:26:32,624 One person writes: 793 00:26:43,602 --> 00:26:45,136 Another comments: 794 00:26:56,715 --> 00:26:58,516 We'd like to know what you think. 795 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:01,853 Send us an email at contact@seattlechannel.org, 796 00:27:02,053 --> 00:27:04,923 or find us on social media. 797 00:27:04,923 --> 00:27:06,024 Great to get that feedback. 798 00:27:06,024 --> 00:27:07,025 And a big thanks to Dr. 799 00:27:07,025 --> 00:27:08,493 Katie Davis, Amy Harris, 800 00:27:08,493 --> 00:27:10,261 and also State Senator Lisa Wellman. 801 00:27:10,261 --> 00:27:12,497 Thanks a lot for being here. -Thank you. -Thank you. 802 00:27:12,497 --> 00:27:14,432 And we'll see you next time on City Inside/Out. 803 00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:27,712 ♪♪