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Hello and welcome back to Book Lust.
I'm Nancy Pearl.
My guest today is Priya Parmar,
Who is the author of three absolutely wonderful
novels, and I'm so happy that finally she's joining us here
on Book Lust.
Priya, thank you so much for coming on the show.
I really have been looking forward to this for a long time.
So your new book is called The Original.
I've been thinking about how to describe this book,
And one of the ways is very obvious,
but I don't think it really tells the whole story,
which is a fictional biography of Katharine Hepburn.
But how do you think about what you do in your three novels?
I don't know if it's a fictional biography as much
as it, because it's, that, I mean, that's sort of biting
off more than I could chew.
That's a whole life.
Whereas I'm trying to tell a very specific story.
I try and find, you know, I don't know what it's
about before I start.
I just start the research.
And then I hope that a story is going to step forward
And feel like this is the story that needs telling.
This is the urgent story.
This is, you know, this is where the pulse is.
This is, you know, all of those things.
And I've gotten lucky three times that that, you know,
that feeling has happened where it's, you know, OK,
This is the actual story.
So it's more I'm telling a kind of a very particular
Slice of a life that that is that basically takes us to
To the icon that we remember.
Oh, that's good.
So that's good because I'm going to
Be talking about this book a lot over the next year.
So I wanted to to get it right.
I mean, because to say, as you're saying, a fictional
Biography both kind of narrows it and expands it way more
Than what than what we than this wonderful book that we
have that I that I just love.
Can I just say you're such a kind and wonderful
And unbelievable advocate for my writing.
And I just, I mean, I literally was jumping up
And down when they said that you needed me to come on.
I was just so thrilled because you've been so kind about my
writing from the very beginning, and I appreciate it so deeply.
Yeah, thank you.
Well, it's just wonderful to find an author that you
Can really count on for both a good read and just
beautiful, beautiful writing.
So after this, you won't need any compliments for about
15 minutes, because I will have heaped them on you.
So the three subjects of your three novels are Nell Gwynn
and Vanessa and Virginia Woolf, and now Katharine Hepburn.
How did you choose those three women?
I, they all came to me in completely different ways.
Nell Gwynn was one of the people that I had researched
in my PhD, and she just didn't really leave me alone.
Um, Vanessa Bell, I read a letter of hers that
she'd written that, um, and Virginia Woolf.
I read a, I read a letter, a
Couple of letters that they had both written and
Their voices just didn't leave my head and they
just haunted me.
And I just, I felt that, that,
You know, falling down the rabbit hole feeling
Of wanting to know more and wanting to know more.
And, and that's, to me, that's always the, the
Big, you know, green flag for, for a book.
And then Katherine Hepburn,
I was watching Philadelphia Story with my mom and,
you know, it's one of my favorite films and I'd
seen it so many times and she and I'd watched it together so
many times.
And she said out of nowhere you know this was
her comeback movie and you know I was really
surprised because I was like come back from what she's
always been on top she's won more Oscars than any
Other person in the acting you know, like when was
She ever not on top?
Because you don't ever think of Katharine
Hepburn not being on top.
And I started Googling and I just immediately
was completely hooked.
And I realized slowly, you know, with kind of half excitement
And half dawning horror when it's a person from history
who you really love and you're like, oh, my God, this is
Going to be my next book.
I'm going to have to write about this person
who scares me so much.
And I, but that's always, you know, where the
Good stuff is when it scares you a whole bunch.
So how did you, your books are so filled with people and facts
And the, you know, the settings.
I mean and they just seem so real to me.
How did you go about your research?
Because it wasn't just Googling.
I mean I picture your writing room
Wherever it is with just three by five cards all
Over the walls, you know, by movie or by person,
That kind of thing.
How did you go about it?
That's actually very true.
That's what I have who have all over the walls.
They're still, you know, they're still up.
But I, so I think because my background is in academics,
I love primary documentation.
I love primary research.
I love anything I can get my hands on
That's in their own voice.
So I start there.
I start with letters.
I start with, you know, if I'm lucky, diaries.
But, you know, in this case, there were David Selznick
Wrote a ton of memos, which almost read like a diary.
You know, so I read just, you know, just widely, not
Knowing where the story is, but just as much primary
documentation as I can.
and then I um and then I start to read the secondary sources
and everything else but then I also love to go to the
places you know because I think a magic um you
Know just sort of a magic chemistry happens when you go to
The places where they actually lived um you know you see
Things that that you know are small details that would never
Make it into a book but they're really important you know to
To you to to understanding the landscape that you're
Writing about to understanding the you know what that person
might have been going through or feeling or doing or anything
Else and you know when um in the scenes that you're writing so i
I, I, then I go to the places and then, and then
I just read and read and read and talked.
And in this case, I was able to
also watch her films.
This is the first time I've been writing about
someone where I knew what she sounded like, um,
Which is in so many ways terrifying.
Cause you've you've got to be able to
Capture that iconic voice, which is not like
anybody else's voice.
And because there's so much film of her,
You were able to capture the physicalness of her
And the way, for example, that she walked.
You mentioned that in the book.
And I could get a picture in my head of what she looked like
Without even, it was just there.
She was like, you know, she was there with me when I was
reading the book, as was Vanessa Bell, because I felt
when you when I read Vanessa and her sister, I was just
Blown away by how you had captured both of their voices.
And I'm an older sister, and my younger sister
Is very accomplished.
And I just identified with Vanessa Bell so much.
and I remember telling people that, you know,
if you're an older sister, you will really understand,
You know, the relationship in this book so much.
And I guess you're great.
What I would describe as your great talent,
Your just amazing ability to get inside these women and
Give us a totally believable
Story i mean when you write the reader finishes
Your books believing that it's like there was a
Tape recorder going and this is what they said that's
The biggest compliment there ever could be
That's the most wonderful thing because you you that means it
Rings true and that's and that's what i that's what i try
You know so hard to um accomplish i try to make
it ring true and that And that can mean heartbreaking
Decisions of, you know, having a line that you love, you know,
That ends up on the cutting room floor because it's either
It's, you know, supported by infrastructure that needs
To that doesn't ring true.
And so it needs to go or or it's a it's a great
Line but it doesn't work here you know so it's
and it just means that I that that all those really difficult
Decisions all along the way were worth it if it rings
true like that's that's what I most want um but
It's it's it takes um you know, for me, it means
I just have to be kind of really, really ruthless
In terms of the editing in a way that's tricky when
You've spent all this time, you know, writing it
And then taking out and taking out and taking out.
You know, I cut about, oh, goodness, I cut
At least 100 pages.
Was, there was, I think there was like 10 years
between Vanessa and her sister and the original,
Which did not seem like it could possibly be that
much because I remember my reading experience so clearly
of Vanessa and her sister.
But were you searching for another topic, another woman?
I was.
I also took time away from writing novels to
Write for the stage.
I wrote a show on the West End.
I co-wrote a show called Sylvia about Sylvia Pankhurst,
which is touring in the UK right now and is headed
to the Royal Albert Hall.
But so I did that.
But really, I had sort of snuck up on the idea of
writing about Katharine Hepburn.
And I had a big chunk of it.
and then you know COVID hit and it was it was really I got I
wouldn't say I got stuck I would say I got a bit because I
couldn't go to California and I couldn't walk
around the places and I I couldn't, you know, do
the things that I normally would do right at the
Start of the research.
I kind of had to approach it differently this time.
And it was it was really hard.
I got I got stuck.
And so then eventually I could go to California and
I could do those things.
And then and then it took off like lightning.
But so I would say it was a combination.
And I was also, I was taking care of my
father who passed away.
So I was also, you know, there was life stuff
And then there was stuff that we all went through.
And then there was work stuff.
So it was like a big combination.
But I couldn't believe it had been so long.
And it was, yeah.
One of the things about the original that I thought was so
interesting were all the people, was the portrayal of Hollywood
In the 1930s and all of those names that are so iconic.
And the way Katharine Hepburn interacted and reacted to
all of those, you know, David Selznick and Irene Selznick and
John Ford and Howard Hughes.
I mean, honestly, in your research, did anything
Surprise you in your reading?
So much, so much.
I mean, I didn't know that she had the
Life that she had growing up.
I didn't know that she'd come out of this terrible
Trauma as a child.
I didn't know that she'd come from a life that had so
Much trauma on both sides.
I didn't, you know, all of those things were a
Complete surprise to me.
I didn't know, I didn't know that, you know, she had been,
you know, when I started this, I didn't know that she had
been married, you know, before.
I didn't know any of, you know, there was so
Much that surprised me.
And then they all had these, you know, Cary Grant also had
a life that I just didn't see see coming.
I had no idea about, I can't, I'm not going to say
anything because I don't want to give things away, but so much
in his life, I did not guess was coming.
So yeah, there was so much that was surprised
And to the point where as a novelist, you're
Not usually having the the problem of, you know,
Nobody's going to believe this.
If I say this is the truth and nobody's going
to believe these things, I'm going to have to, you know,
how do I scale back the drama?
You know, even though it's all real life.
So it was, you know, which is an amazing problem
To have as a novelist, terrible for her to live
Through, but an amazing problem to have as a novelist.
I thought that, so I knew nothing, I mean, really nothing
about Katharine Hepburn.
I had, I read some books about
Hollywood in the 1930s and the Hays Code and the way there was.
But I never dreamed that she and Howard Hughes
Had a relationship.
I know.
A big relationship.
A life-changing relationship.
And it's, it's, so you, I didn't know she'd had that,
but I, and I also didn't know, I didn't know that Hollywood
Was the way that it was.
You think of Hollywood in the 1930s.
And before I did all of this research, I imagined
A place that was, you know, conservative, straight,
Like, you know, just all of the things that you imagine
The 1930s, you know, to be.
But in actual fact, it was, you know, bohemian.
It was incredibly liberal.
It was progressive.
It was, you know, open marriages.
And people have, you know, same-sex relationships
were not only not uncommon.
They were nobody batted an eye.
It wasn't the way that you think of the United
States in the 1930s to be.
And it was just this incredible moment in time.
And they were all this, everybody was in on that
Sort of agreement to protect that ecosystem.
You know, the press was in on it, the, you know, the studio,
You know, everybody was sort of keeping the secret that
Hollywood was this incredible liberal place at that time.
And I just, it was all a surprise to me.
And the, you know, hugely ironic part of that is that while
They tried to keep everything, was putting on a show for
The people who were going to be watching the movies,
that the way Cary Grant or Katharine Hepburn lived
was not this picture-perfect, idyllic, American way of life.
That was, I mean, I'm sure it still goes on,
But it was to such a degree.
And it was, it was, and, and she, she had such an
Unconventional family in, in so many ways.
You know, her mother was a huge in the
suffrage movement.
Her father was, you know, an early,
Early advocate for education about venereal disease.
You know, it was it was just the discussions that were
happening at the Hepburn dinner table were not ones that you
Imagine the 1920s and 30s to be.
So she starts off there and then she goes to Hollywood,
Which is just this really, you know, heady, free place
At that time, which was just a real joy to write.
It was wonderful to be able to write that.
And it was so heartbreaking that those were sort of the
Last few minutes of that time.
And then the Hays Code sort of brought the end
Of that liberal period.
Yeah.
You sort of thought what the reader, I think, kind of falls
In love with these characters.
I mean, even Randolph Scott.
I mean, I never ever thought of, I don't think I would
ever, I mean, I knew who he, I mean, I knew the name and
I knew he was a movie star.
But I don't think the name Randolph Scott ever
Came to me or ever would.
And then he turns up in your book, and there he is.
And Howard Hughes, you humanize him in a way.
I mean, I think when I was telling somebody
about this book, he told me, he said, yeah,
You know how he died, and you know what condition
he was in when he died, But, which is true, and you
talk about that, but Howard Hughes has this whole other
Life, you know, before that.
And, well, I don't think I'm giving anything away,
but Kate ends up with this beautiful emerald diamond ring.
Is that ring still in existence?
She kept it until she died.
It was among her belongings that were auctioned.
I think it was Sotheby's that auctioned it after she died.
But so she kept it all of her life.
He meant that much to her.
And the way she spoke about him, you know, to the end of
Her life was with such love.
You know we all know about Spencer Tracy and the
The romance that happened there but the way that
she loved howard hughes was just clearly incredibly
Incredibly meaningful and the way that you know
What happened to his life you know in the very
Sad sort of descent into you know addiction and
OCD and all these terrible things that he suffered
At the end of his life that you're right that
beginning part when he was you know young when he
Was healthy when he was when he was totally on top
As a filmmaker, as an aviator, you know, all of these
Things kind of get lost.
And there's so much more to him than just the obsessively,
obsessively driven, you know, aeronautic engineer.
There's so much more to him.
He adored her.
You know he just clearly and they and they clearly
Adored each other and the way that she treated his
Deafness um i think that once i sort of figured
once i understood how she approached his deafness
Because she comes from a medical family so it was
Not something you know to be i'm so sorry i have a
dog behind me who's just wiggling around um who
Uh you know the way that she treated his deafness
Was i think unlike anyone else in in his life and it freed him
I think it i think it gave him
A way of being in the world that didn't have any shame attached
To it, which was wonderful.
And I think that's one of the reasons he just
was crazy about her.
Yeah, yeah.
Are you thinking about, I know you're going
To be busy with publicity and and everything else
With the new book.
But are you thinking about another woman?
I'm circling three at the moment,
and I don't know where it's going to land.
I don't know how it's going to go.
And what's weird is that I've never actually
Had that happen before.
I've always known really early on, like, okay,
That doesn't work.
okay that doesn't work and then when I know you
know it's it's scary but I know um in the in this
case I'm I'm not I'm not sure I'm not sure yet
And it's been it's been such a joy to write her
Um and you know i i i've been living with her longer than i've
Been living with anyone else i've written about but i'm
Really struggling to let her go i'm really struggling to let
That whole world go um you know it's it's it's tough you
Sort of get homesick for this fictional world that you've
Built and you want to go back and you find that
your you know your gate key doesn't work anymore
And it's upsetting.
Yeah no I mean because I was thinking I've been
thinking about who I would like you to do.
I couldn't come up with anybody that
That was as vital as the people that you have chosen,
but I'm going to keep working on it and if I can
think of somebody, I will get in touch with your publicist.
No, get in touch with me.
I'll give you my email.
I would love to hear from you
about absolutely anything.
I did want to give you one quick fiction recommendation, if you
Haven't read it, but maybe you came across it when you were
doing the Mrs. Pankhurst play.
there's a novel called Old Baggage by a British
writer named Lissa Evans and the main character
Is one of the early suffragettes and what they went through
And it's just a wonderful wonderful novel.
I do think you would really like it.
I don't know that one.
I'm going to write that down.
Lisa, Lisa Evans.
Okay. Lisa Evans.
And it's all in baggage.
Yeah. Amazing.
Amazing. Amazing.
Wow. I gave reader's advisory
to, uh, did that for a Priya Parmar.
I would love I would love that.
I would love that.
I would.
Absolutely. And I'm always looking for,
I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, if you really do come
Across someone you think, oh, this would be great to
write about, please tell me.
Because it's really hard to envision how it's going to go.
And you never know if readers are going to connect or not.
And you always seem to be really, you know,
Have your finger right on the pulse of that.
Thank you.
Well, Priya, thank you so much for coming on the show.
It's just been a real treat for me to get to talk to you.
And I look forward to rereading the original,
your brand new book.
And now I feel like I need to go back to the earlier two,
Which will give me great pleasure in rereading them, too.
So thank you and write on.
I will.
I'm on the case.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
You're very welcome.
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